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I don't think there are adequate words in the English language to really express the contempt and hatred for someone who would do this.
I think she should be in solitary confinement 24 hours a day and given crappy lunchmeat sandwishes for every meal (something like SPAM every meal) and water and supplements injected just to keep her alive so she can spend the rest of her life thinking about what she did. I think that might be fitting.
Of course, NO contact with the outside world. Just a guard shoving a plate at her three times a day. In fact, each meal can be accompanied by photos of her now deceased darlings who have wings in heaven.
Isn't there a song called Why Can't a Woman be More Like a Man? Both these things should listen and behave more like a man ..... a believe males are more likely to kill themselves rather than cost taxpayers for years of their upkeep.
something being "thought out" by a schizophrenic or mentally ill person is not the same "thought out" and premeditation that one associates with sane people. the guy who was the sacramento vampire, richard chase, he thought about his crimes too. for about five minutes. he thought about how to get rid of the carcasses of the animals whose blood he drank and which was found caked all over his apartment. that is not the same thing as someone calmly hiding a body. putting those two crimes in the same class really just betrays your lack of knowledge about the cases. she should have gone to her husband. you are probably one of those types who would have said an abused child who killed a parent "should have gone to the coach or someone and told them about it- they didn't- so fry them".
There is no way she only put 5 minutes into planning this out and I think you know it. I don't care what kind of person you think I am the point is she planned it out. Sick or not which I doubt she really is. Just because she murdered all of her children doesn't automatically mean she didn't know what she was doing. Yes it seems like she would be and maybe it's just easier for us all to think she must be insane, schizophrenic or some other label that helps us all feel we have an answer to what she did. Just because she calmly called the police and didn't hide the dead bodies of the children doesn't automatically mean she didn't know what she was doing. I have no doubt she knew exactly how to play it out. We all know hiding the evidence, bodies shows guilt but as soon as they aren't hidden and as soon as the guilty admit it they look like they didn't know any better. You may fall for that but I don't. You won't find a medical professional who won't say she wasn't insane, schizophrenic or what ever other label they have because it's what they do for a living. It's what most of society wants to hear because it's too horrible to accept that anyone, especially a Mother, would do such a thing in a horrific way. Yates knew she would never ever get away from her husband, never get away from the children and the church she was forced to belong to. She didn't want that life anymore and chose this way out. I don't buy the she's sick so let her off easy. You excuse murder all to easy I don't. You give poor examples for why you think she shouldn't be in jail/prison.
Isn't there a song called Why Can't a Woman be More Like a Man? Both these things should listen and behave more like a man ..... a believe males are more likely to kill themselves rather than cost taxpayers for years of their upkeep.
I don't think it matters what sex a person is when it comes to murder. I also don't think murderers care about saving taxpayers money LOL. Some people will go to any length to get out of a marriage or whatever situation they are in when they want no connection to the old life. I think both did what they did to get out of the life they no longer wanted. Both only thought of what they wanted, how they felt and no one else.
Susan Smith getting a second trial?!? now that would be a waste of taxpayer dollars and the courts time.
There is no way she only put 5 minutes into planning this out and I think you know it. I don't care what kind of person you think I am the point is she planned it out. Sick or not which I doubt she really is. Just because she murdered all of her children doesn't automatically mean she didn't know what she was doing. Yes it seems like she would be and maybe it's just easier for us all to think she must be insane, schizophrenic or some other label that helps us all feel we have an answer to what she did. Just because she calmly called the police and didn't hide the dead bodies of the children doesn't automatically mean she didn't know what she was doing. I have no doubt she knew exactly how to play it out. We all know hiding the evidence, bodies shows guilt but as soon as they aren't hidden and as soon as the guilty admit it they look like they didn't know any better. You may fall for that but I don't. You won't find a medical professional who won't say she wasn't insane, schizophrenic or what ever other label they have because it's what they do for a living. It's what most of society wants to hear because it's too horrible to accept that anyone, especially a Mother, would do such a thing in a horrific way. Yates knew she would never ever get away from her husband, never get away from the children and the church she was forced to belong to. She didn't want that life anymore and chose this way out. I don't buy the she's sick so let her off easy. You excuse murder all to easy I don't. You give poor examples for why you think she shouldn't be in jail/prison.
well, like it or not, some people are mentally ill. like it or not, sometimes they kill people when they are in full throttle of their illness. i am definitely not saying set andrea yates free. hell no. people ought to be punished for a crime like that. its not as if she killed her abusive husband to save her children. i definitely think she should be punished, and am not trying to excuse her. but to put her in the same class as susan smith-
i mean, i have read just about everything i could find about true crime since i started reading thirty years ago, and i am certainly no expert but over the years, i guess i have compartmentalized different types of murderers as being less or more venal than another. like i said on another thread, i think there is a big difference between john wayne gacy, who "enjoyed" his crimes and who was able to put a good show on in public, to someone like dahmer, who was dysfunctional all the way around. there are a handful of murderers that i can feel something like compassion for. just a small, freaking handful, out of the thousands i have read about, and just because i feel compassion for them does not mean i want them to be released, think its ok, etc. i just mean if i am going to get in an angry froth about some heartless murderer it isn't gonna be one of them. usually its because they had incredibly horrifying backgrounds (aileen wuornos) obvious deep, deep psychological issues that rendered them completely incapable of functioning normally never mind not killing (richard chase) more interested in "not being alone" than getting sick pleasure from torture (dennis nielsen)....in short, i can see these people as being somewhat human or i can somewhat feel empathy for them. again, it doesn't mean i think they should be released. but i am not gonna be one of the people who scream for their heads, either. in my opinion, people like susan smith, ian brady and myra hindley, the wests, and john wayne gacy were without mercy, without hearts, and should have been fried. i am drawing my own distinctions here that maybe some will find erroneous, but as someone who can barely imagine killing a fly some cases make me more angry than others.
also, post-natal depression is a fact, and i think that andrea yates ought to be studied in depth. i think anyone who commits an unusual crime should be studied. where do you think profiling came from? i suppose i am contradicting my earlier statement, but without people like gacy or bundy or probably one of the most intelligent murderes ever, ed kemper, we would not NEARLY be so far ahead of the game as we are now. now we can practically tell you the color of the underwear the guy was wearing when he commited the crime by looking at the patterns in the crime scene. to me that is exciting. we are sort of starting to win. for gods sake, we caught the green river killer! i still can't get over that! we got ted bundy! BTK! the grim sleeper! and we couldn't have done that without making a concentrated effort to understand. there very well could be smething chemical going on in the yates case that will prevent some crimes of that nature happening in the future.
also, i must say, having lived in greenville (real close to this area) south carolina for five years, i can tell you, if she gets out, she won't be alive long. rednecks like guns and they don't like child killers. either it would be a black guy still pissed that she tried to frame the black community, or it will be some old drunk redneck thinking of those little kids. either way, she won't stay alive long. which might be the best answer all the way round.
well, like it or not, some people are mentally ill. like it or not, sometimes they kill people when they are in full throttle of their illness. i am definitely not saying set andrea yates free. hell no. people ought to be punished for a crime like that. its not as if she killed her abusive husband to save her children. i definitely think she should be punished, and am not trying to excuse her. but to put her in the same class as susan smith-
Yes like it or not some people are I just don't buy that they shouldn't go to prison and pay for their crime. I'm glad to see you think they should be punished too. she is in some way the same class as Susan Smith but I do see what you mean. I just don't see her as a victim anymore than I see Susan Smith as a victim. Andrea Yates could have easily gotten the idea of acting like she was mentally ill from TV shows, documentaries, news articles and radio reported news. They both went about hiding it in their own way but it to me it doesn't make one less guilty than the other or mentally ill and the other not. Susan Smith is in no way mentally ill but that doesn't mean Andrea Yates is just because she acts different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthouse66
i mean, i have read just about everything i could find about true crime since i started reading thirty years ago, and i am certainly no expert but over the years, i guess i have compartmentalized different types of murderers as being less or more venal than another. like i said on another thread, i think there is a big difference between john wayne gacy, who "enjoyed" his crimes and who was able to put a good show on in public, to someone like dahmer, who was dysfunctional all the way around. there are a handful of murderers that i can feel something like compassion for. just a small, freaking handful, out of the thousands i have read about, and just because i feel compassion for them does not mean i want them to be released, think its ok, etc. i just mean if i am going to get in an angry froth about some heartless murderer it isn't gonna be one of them. usually its because they had incredibly horrifying backgrounds (aileen wuornos) obvious deep, deep psychological issues that rendered them completely incapable of functioning normally never mind not killing (richard chase) more interested in "not being alone" than getting sick pleasure from torture (dennis nielsen)....in short, i can see these people as being somewhat human or i can somewhat feel empathy for them. again, it doesn't mean i think they should be released. but i am not gonna be one of the people who scream for their heads, either. in my opinion, people like susan smith, ian brady and myra hindley, the wests, and john wayne gacy were without mercy, without hearts, and should have been fried. i am drawing my own distinctions here that maybe some will find erroneous, but as someone who can barely imagine killing a fly some cases make me more angry than others.
Maybe we all compartmentalize them I know I sometimes do. I do that similar to what you describe. For me it depends on how heinous the crime is, do they show remorse, which neither Susan Smith or Andrea Yates showed, was there sexual abuse and how they were raised does have quite a lot to do with whether or not they grow up to be monsters but it doesn't excuse them or mean they are mentally ill. When I do compartmentalize them it's to determine how much time they should get or if they would truly deserve the death if that were on the table.
I doubt Yates was created that way and I still doubt she is really insane. I still see she knew exactly what she was doing and knew it was wrong. I don't see any mercy at all with what Yates did and no remorse either. I saw on a TV show ( not sure if it was Diane Sawyer- 20/20) where they showed a nice little brook and park where she could sit outside everyday in total peace and harmony and that just angered me. She got no punishment at all. She now has the life she wanted except no husband which I'm sure she finally decided he wasn't much of one anyway. It would not surprise me one bit to find she secretly thinks to herself about being she got rid of her children to get the peace she finally wanted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nighthouse66
also, post-natal depression is a fact, and i think that andrea yates ought to be studied in depth. i think anyone who commits an unusual crime should be studied. where do you think profiling came from? i suppose i am contradicting my earlier statement, but without people like gacy or bundy or probably one of the most intelligent murderes ever, ed kemper, we would not NEARLY be so far ahead of the game as we are now. now we can practically tell you the color of the underwear the guy was wearing when he commited the crime by looking at the patterns in the crime scene. to me that is exciting. we are sort of starting to win. for gods sake, we caught the green river killer! i still can't get over that! we got ted bundy! BTK! the grim sleeper! and we couldn't have done that without making a concentrated effort to understand. there very well could be smething chemical going on in the yates case that will prevent some crimes of that nature happening in the future.
I agree we do need to study criminals, murderers I think it can be done while they are in prison not in a hospital. If you or society feels it's absolutely necessary then maybe a compromise should be done...keep them hospitalized for one year but after that they go to prison. See the problem for me is once they are in the hospital due to supposed mental illness they never go to prison after that. There is no justice in that. It's not because of the murderers that we have learned so much more it's because of people like Candice DeLong who study and profile the murder, murderer, and every single speck of evidence. It's a combination of all aspects of law that help society to put these criminals away. When we start negotiating deals and keep murders in hospitals instead of prison we slowly chip away justice for the victims.
also, i must say, having lived in greenville (real close to this area) south carolina for five years, i can tell you, if she gets out, she won't be alive long. rednecks like guns and they don't like child killers. either it would be a black guy still pissed that she tried to frame the black community, or it will be some old drunk redneck thinking of those little kids. either way, she won't stay alive long. which might be the best answer all the way round.
I would understand their anger but that would be murder. It's not the same as when the legal system imposes the death penalty through due process of the law.
Yes like it or not some people are I just don't buy that they shouldn't go to prison and pay for their crime. I'm glad to see you think they should be punished too. she is in some way the same class as Susan Smith but I do see what you mean. I just don't see her as a victim anymore than I see Susan Smith as a victim. Andrea Yates could have easily gotten the idea of acting like she was mentally ill from TV shows, documentaries, news articles and radio reported news. They both went about hiding it in their own way but it to me it doesn't make one less guilty than the other or mentally ill and the other not. Susan Smith is in no way mentally ill but that doesn't mean Andrea Yates is just because she acts different.
Maybe we all compartmentalize them I know I sometimes do. I do that similar to what you describe. For me it depends on how heinous the crime is, do they show remorse, which neither Susan Smith or Andrea Yates showed, was there sexual abuse and how they were raised does have quite a lot to do with whether or not they grow up to be monsters but it doesn't excuse them or mean they are mentally ill. When I do compartmentalize them it's to determine how much time they should get or if they would truly deserve the death if that were on the table.
I doubt Yates was created that way and I still doubt she is really insane. I still see she knew exactly what she was doing and knew it was wrong. I don't see any mercy at all with what Yates did and no remorse either. I saw on a TV show ( not sure if it was Diane Sawyer- 20/20) where they showed a nice little brook and park where she could sit outside everyday in total peace and harmony and that just angered me. She got no punishment at all. She now has the life she wanted except no husband which I'm sure she finally decided he wasn't much of one anyway. It would not surprise me one bit to find she secretly thinks to herself about being she got rid of her children to get the peace she finally wanted.
I agree we do need to study criminals, murderers I think it can be done while they are in prison not in a hospital. If you or society feels it's absolutely necessary then maybe a compromise should be done...keep them hospitalized for one year but after that they go to prison. See the problem for me is once they are in the hospital due to supposed mental illness they never go to prison after that. There is no justice in that. It's not because of the murderers that we have learned so much more it's because of people like Candice DeLong who study and profile the murder, murderer, and every single speck of evidence. It's a combination of all aspects of law that help society to put these criminals away. When we start negotiating deals and keep murders in hospitals instead of prison we slowly chip away justice for the victims.
Good discussion nighthouse66
likewise! i love me a good rousing debate, especially when, at the end, you realize you are pretty much in agreement!
i will give you this- i was reminded of arthur shawcross when you talked about the possibility of fakery on yate's part....one part of his defense was the fact that he claimed PSTD and that that had, in effect, turned him into a murderer. he claimed to have had a large number of horrific battle experiences in vietnam, including a ghoulish episode involving a young vietnamese girl tied to a tree which i won't recount here, but HE recounted in quite horrid detail, and which turned out to be NOT TRUE. he never even SAW combat, and seemed to be recounting these "tales" as a way to, for lack of a better term, "enjoy himself". he actually convinced a few psychiatrists, as i recall, and i think it was left to the prosecution to divulge that he had indeed never had any of these experiences.
and also, kenneth bianchi, one half of the sunset killers, claimed to be in possession of more than one personality, as did arthur shawcross (my ex husband actually knew arthur, worked at the same rest home as his girlfriend did and said people called arthur "artie the one man party" lol), john wayne gacy, and many others i am sure. none of these guys actually suffered from multiple personality disorder, but what's the truth if it stands in the way of a good defense?
so yes, there is definitely historical precedent for criminals falsely claiming mental illness. again, i think richard chase is probably the only one i can think of who actually was truly, deeply, batsh*t crazy. the guy walked around with blood on his clothes and his whole apartment was just caked with excrement, blood, animal parts, and he sincerely believed that someone was experimenting on him from afar to turn his blood into powder, which was why he felt compelled to drink blood. he was under care for a long, long while before he committed any crimes.....he probably would have killed if he were standing right next to an officer, which is pretty much the very definition of insanity as outlined in the macnaughton rule.
and as far as murderous rednecks, i don't condone lynch mobs, as they are a very poor substitute for justice. but i am just saying, whether i condone them or not, someone will take care of her.
likewise! i love me a good rousing debate, especially when, at the end, you realize you are pretty much in agreement!
i will give you this- i was reminded of arthur shawcross when you talked about the possibility of fakery on yate's part....one part of his defense was the fact that he claimed PSTD and that that had, in effect, turned him into a murderer. he claimed to have had a large number of horrific battle experiences in vietnam, including a ghoulish episode involving a young vietnamese girl tied to a tree which i won't recount here, but HE recounted in quite horrid detail, and which turned out to be NOT TRUE. he never even SAW combat, and seemed to be recounting these "tales" as a way to, for lack of a better term, "enjoy himself". he actually convinced a few psychiatrists, as i recall, and i think it was left to the prosecution to divulge that he had indeed never had any of these experiences.
and also, kenneth bianchi, one half of the sunset killers, claimed to be in possession of more than one personality, as did arthur shawcross (my ex husband actually knew arthur, worked at the same rest home as his girlfriend did and said people called arthur "artie the one man party" lol), john wayne gacy, and many others i am sure. none of these guys actually suffered from multiple personality disorder, but what's the truth if it stands in the way of a good defense?
so yes, there is definitely historical precedent for criminals falsely claiming mental illness. again, i think richard chase is probably the only one i can think of who actually was truly, deeply, batsh*t crazy. the guy walked around with blood on his clothes and his whole apartment was just caked with excrement, blood, animal parts, and he sincerely believed that someone was experimenting on him from afar to turn his blood into powder, which was why he felt compelled to drink blood. he was under care for a long, long while before he committed any crimes.....he probably would have killed if he were standing right next to an officer, which is pretty much the very definition of insanity as outlined in the macnaughton rule.
and as far as murderous rednecks, i don't condone lynch mobs, as they are a very poor substitute for justice. but i am just saying, whether i condone them or not, someone will take care of her.
Ahhh I got locked out! then I couldn't remember my password so of course I had to get a new one.
Yes we do pretty much agree here for the most part. I forgot about Sawcross, you have a good memory. For me it's the serial killers who wear and eat their victims who are truly nuts and even with them I still think they should have to do time in prison with the rest of them. Hmm maybe solitary confinement 24/7 would be punishment but not in a nice cushy hospital. I truly do not think the macnaughton rule applies to Adrea Yates thought I can see how some would think it does. I will never ever see it as applying to Susan Smith. The way it looks to me is they both knew exactly what they doing at the time of the murders.
Lawyers always try to claim it was (insert whatever is popular at the time) for the reason for the murders. The Psychiatrists/medical professionals always say it was due to (insert their specialty).
Oh I am sure you don't condone rednecks. I know you were just saying what they would do. I was only saying what I thought of them doing if it were to happen.
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