Stolen cement gargoyle (Phoenix, Tucson, Pima: sale, new home, landscaping)

[brooks2007]

Originally Posted by phonelady61

You know it never amazes me what people steal these days . To the op I hope you get it back . I just wanted to let you know someone stole my dear M.I.Ls urn to hold flowers at her grave and there was a statue there too and someone stole that too . Bad karma will follow them because they to me are grave robbers nothing short of it and people like that are scum and deserve nothing in their sorry azz lives .

Recently someone took the floral arrangements off of both grave stones at a cemetery where both my dads (biological and step-dad) are buried. Phonelady61 is right on... It is appalling what lowlife scum there are in the world.

They found someone else who had been doing this regularly and followed him. He was a well-to-do local taking the flowers to one of his loved one's gravesites at another nearby cemetery. What a cheap SOB -if you believe enough to take flowers to a grave, then wouldn't you also believe that the person would know you stole them? Unless you were just doing it for "show", clearly no conscience. I believe there will be a "special" place in the afterlife for pathological perps who prey on others (including your gargoyle thief).
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[observer53]

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Legally, it quite simply is not enough to positively ID the vehicle, sorry, and that's where the legal term reasonable doubt comes into play. Though it's good enough information to make a good start, by itself, it just wouldn't stand up in court--that's what I meant.

We aren't even TALKING about what will "stand up in court" yet. Where did you go to law school (or the police academy)? The police find what is likely the car based on the information given. (again, assuming the plate is not stolen) They have probable cause to search the vehicle for evidence, and have someone who will apparently be able to identify the driver, which is pretty helpful if the driver and owner are the same person. That can lead to MORE probable cause to search other property, question suspects, etc. You are putting the whole guilt or innocence of someone at trial (which is the point at which the legal concept of "reasonable doubt" becomes relevant) on a partial license plate number. That's not the way it works.

[Bummer]

How about an update, SusieWilson?

Any news? Any leads? Have you been "bugging" the Sheriff's Office on a regular basis?

Remember . . . ONLY THE SQUEAKY WHEEL GETS THE GREASE.

[Metlakatla]

Originally Posted by observer53

We aren't even TALKING about what will "stand up in court" yet. Where did you go to law school (or the police academy)? The police find what is likely the car based on the information given. (again, assuming the plate is not stolen) They have probable cause to search the vehicle for evidence, and have someone who will apparently be able to identify the driver, which is pretty helpful if the driver and owner are the same person. That can lead to MORE probable cause to search other property, question suspects, etc. You are putting the whole guilt or innocence of someone at trial (which is the point at which the legal concept of "reasonable doubt" becomes relevant) on a partial license plate number. That's not the way it works.

Maybe you weren't talking about what would stand up in court; I was. Once more time, that's all I meant. I did not dispute that the information provided was not enough to lead to a suspect; what I said was that partial plate numbers aren't enough to positively ID a suspect. You can blare on about it all you want, but you still can't change that legal fact, sorry.

Susie, I hope that you find it; please give us an update when you can.

[M.A.]

I hope you get your gargoyle back. I understand having something with so much sentimental value that may mean nothing to anybody else. I don't even put anything outside anymore. It's sad. I know theft and vandalism happen all over, but it seems worse in Tucson than most places.

My husband stepped in dog crap one day and it got all over his sandals. We were rushing to get to work so he left the sandals outside (covered in crap) and by the time we got home from work someone had stolen the sandals. People really will steal anything!

Good luck on your search!

[observer53]

One more time.

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Actually, it isn't more than enough...it isn't even close to enough. A legal term called "reasonable doubt" comes into play here. Could be several black SUVs in a city the size of Phoenix with similar license plate numbers. To make a positive ID they need the exact make and model as well as the entire license plate number.

No, "reasonable doubt" ONLY comes into play when someone is charged and on trial. At the investigation stage, probable cause is the issue, and they really don't need "positive ID" of the vehicle, as you describe/define it, to search any black SUV with that partial plate. (I doubt very much that there are multiple black SUV's in PIMA County (we aren't talking Phoenix, BTW) with the same sequence of numbers/letters with one missing.)

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

I didn't say it wasn't close enough for further investigation; it is. What I was responding to was your statement that it's more than enough for a positive identification, and it isn't.

It may very well be enough, actually, but it really doesn't matter one way or the other, as long as it leads to further evidence through investigation. And "what stands up in court" or "reasonable doubt" are not the issues at the point of just having a partial plate and general description, where SW is now.

Originally Posted by Metlakatla

Legally, it quite simply is not enough to positively ID the vehicle, sorry, and that's where the legal term reasonable doubt comes into play. Though it's good enough information to make a good start, by itself, it just wouldn't stand up in court--that's what I meant.

No, it doesn't come into play, and what will "stand up in court" for a conviction is way further down the road. The partial plate, if it leads to further relevant evidence, will "stand up in court" just fine, along with all the rest of it. No prosecutor would go into court for trial with just a partial plate number used, standing alone, for charging the owner of a vehicle that matches the description given by the victim, so it's silly to talk about it like it would happen.

So, enough about "stand up in court". When I said "we" aren't talking about it, I didn't mean that literally, referring to this thread. I just meant that the case is nowhere near at the point of what will "stand up in court" at trial. There's a lot more that needs to happen before that comes up.

Keep us posted, Susie.

[Metlakatla]

Nothing you say is in dispute and I don't recall denying that the information that she had wasn't possibly enough to lead to a suspect. I said that it wasn't enough to make a positive ID, that is all. Sorry that's so difficult for you to understand.

[azdr0710]

gee, after reading this entire thread, I'm very interested in this...

Susie: can you give us an update?

and I agree with kdog and others that with 6 out of 7 letters/digits off the plate, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to narrow it down to 26 cars (if a letter was missing) or ten cars (if a number was missing)!!...right?...at least that's how fast they do it on CSI Vegas!

I wonder if Susie could hire a PI and get this solved faster than the PD....I know some PIs can have access to plate info

I hope this all turns out well......

[Marcy1210]

Lawyers can also run plates and driver's license checks. They do them all the time. A lawyer who has a client with a DUI or something serious will often run the plates and license to see what else the client may have racked up without divulging to his attorney. If you know a lawyer, or a paralegal with a firm, or a law clerk, they can probably do it for you without charge. It only takes a second. If you want to pay for it (about $30.00) you can google "License Plate Owners Arizona" and a bunch of sites will come up where for a fee, you can enter the partial plate and see if you can find a match on your own. Only drawback is I don't know if it will give your the year, make and model of the car or just the license plate.

[SusieWilson]

The vehicle I saw was a black SUV. The plate came back to a car in Phoenix; this plate had been reported stolen off of the car it was suppose to be on.

In the couple years the community I live in has been here, there have been NO robberies. Three days after my gargoyle was taken a pair of deer where taken from the yard where I blocked the truck in. Three houses down from there, a bench and a few other lawn things were also taken.

My neighbors think that the person who took the gargoyle came to take other things too but I interrupted them.

I put a ¼ page ad in the Tucson Shopper.

Out of all the flyers, the ad, the calls to police and the TV I have gotten no leads at all.

Reading some of these posts, it makes me sick to know that some people have actually taken things off of graves. I am so sorry to hear that America has people living here that would do that. Yet, I'm not surprised.