Don't Believe the Hype : Tucson, Arizona (Phoenix, Yuma: elementary school, cost of living, air quality)

[azhiker]

Originally Posted by oklahomaboy405

Weren't there famous wild-west cowboy criminals?

Care to flesh out the point you're trying to make?

[sickofIL]

Is our city getting dumber in the aggregate? Sounds like a crazy question, but I think there's a high correlation between (lack of) intelligence and criminality.

I mean, there's a correlation between intelligence and income, too. If you're not that bright, your economic prospects are pretty dim in this increasingly technical world. Crime probably seems like a pretty viable alternative to the none too bright.

And in these days of relativism, thug culture is actually celebrated. Who'd a thunk it 50 years ago? Crazy, crazy world these days.

Ah yet... I still love it here.

It's not just there, it's everywhere. And yes, thug culture is celebrated. Look at the news, movies etc. They all tend to sensationalize these things. It is printed everywhere and talked about on the radio and TV. Now with the Internet age this news is instanteneous. It is available to young kids too. Then you have parents that don't spend time with their kids or teach them right from wrong but teach them to blame everyone else. They don't pay attention to what they watch on TV or where the go on the Internet.

And 50 years ago there probably were the same kinds of people except most of us didn't know about them.

[oklahomaboy405]

Originally Posted by azhiker

Care to flesh out the point you're trying to make?

If my math is correct 2008-50(yrs ago)=1958

The Authentic Life of Billy, the Kid.

Bonnie and Clyde:Romeo and Juliet in a Getaway Car

Many "mob" based motion pictures.
... Point is that media more than 50 yrs ago made being a criminal cool...

I agree that the sensationalistic exploits of the media of our time encourage and give a notoriety to that kind of behavior but acting as if its a new phenomenon is just not true. Its not even thug culture its American culture.

[azhiker]

Originally Posted by sickofIL

...
And 50 years ago there probably were the same kinds of people except most of us didn't know about them.

To the extent that we did know about them, they were regarded as scum.

Therein lies the enormous difference between now and then. Still scummy (and criminal) behavior, just nowadays the behavior is celebrated instead of reviled.

Now, criminal and anti-social behavior earns low-lifes "street cred", and maybe another new record contract.

Ain't relativism grand?

[oklahomaboy405]

Originally Posted by sickofIL

It's not just there, it's everywhere. And yes, thug culture is celebrated. Look at the news, movies etc. They all tend to sensationalize these things. It is printed everywhere and talked about on the radio and TV. Now with the Internet age this news is instanteneous. It is available to young kids too. Then you have parents that don't spend time with their kids or teach them right from wrong but teach them to blame everyone else. They don't pay attention to what they watch on TV or where the go on the Internet.

And 50 years ago there probably were the same kinds of people except most of us didn't know about them.

Would you agree that Americans have more access to pornography now than ever before? Some of the most perverse and obscene things I've ever witnessed have been on the internet. Does that make the internet or the times we live in sad? No. I've learned massive amounts just from casual surfing. Should you censor media or hold parents responsible for supervising their children?

[oklahomaboy405]

Originally Posted by azhiker

To the extent that we did know about them, they were regarded as scum.

Therein lies the enormous difference between now and then. Still scummy (and criminal) behavior, just nowadays the behavior is celebrated instead of reviled.

Now, criminal and anti-social behavior earns low-lifes "street cred", and maybe another new record contract.

Ain't relativism grand?

No they were not. Wild west stage coach bandits and bank robbers are glorified in AZ's history. Let's not change history.

You've heard and seen numerous imitations of these criminals...

Ma Barker-The famous maternal advisor of the Barker Boys

Al Capone

John Dillinger

Lucky Luciano

Bugsy Seigel

These men had America Changing the way they dressed and what kind of cars they drove.

[azhiker]

There's no rewriting of history. You are equating the MOST notorious outlaws of their time being sensationalized with the generalized glorification of common thugs and scum that goes on today, and the general acceptance of a lifestyle (gangsta) as though it is as valid as any other (relativism).

There might have been some titillation about the worst criminals in history (Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, etc, in much the same way as people might be interested in the Zodiac killer, and Ted Bundy, and they made for interesting theater and movies, but it was not the kind of generalized acceptance and glorification of scum and their often criminal behavior and lifestyles that we see today. Glorifying people like Snoop Dogg (whose whole persona is all about being a gangsta... there are so many like him I could use as example, but he comes readily to mind) would have been inconceivable 50 years ago. Now Snoop Dogg the Crip member (formerly indicted for murder) has his own TV show. Go figure.

You are pointing out a very, very few of the most notorious criminals of their day and trying to equate that with the generalized acceptance and celebration of the pathologies, crime, and generally anti-social behaviors of a not insignificant portion of the population. Gang life is a reality. Gang membership and all the crime associated with gangs has exploded exponentially in the last 50 years. A fair portion of youth today think that gangstaz and the values they have, and the behaviors they exhibit, and the image they portray are the way to be these days, and in fact try to emulate much about them (and why would they not; they're glorified on TV night and day), and that's truly pathetic.

Clearly you don't see any (or much) difference between now and 50 years ago with regard to how common thugs are regarded. I see the difference as night and day.

All this has little to do with Tucson outside of the fact that there is unfortunately more gang activity in Tucson than there was 10 years ago, but it's still a great place in my view.

[oklahomaboy405]

Originally Posted by azhiker

There's no rewriting of history. You are equating the MOST notorious outlaws of their time being sensationalized with the generalized glorification of common thugs and scum that goes on today, and the general acceptance of a lifestyle (gangsta) as though it is as valid as any other (relativism).

There might have been some titillation about the worst criminals in history (Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, etc, in much the same way as people might be interested in the Zodiac killer, and Ted Bundy, and they made for interesting theater and movies, but it was not the kind of generalized acceptance and glorification of scum and their often criminal behavior and lifestyles that we see today. Glorifying people like Snoop Dogg (whose whole persona is all about being a gangsta... there are so many like him I could use as example, but he comes readily to mind) would have been inconceivable 50 years ago. Now Snoop Dogg the Crip member (formerly indicted for murder) has his own TV show. Go figure.

You are pointing out a very, very few of the most notorious criminals of their day and trying to equate that with the generalized acceptance and celebration of the pathologies, crime, and generally anti-social behaviors of a not insignificant portion of the population. Gang life is a reality. Gang membership and all the crime associated with gangs has exploded exponentially in the last 50 years. A fair portion of youth today think that gangstaz and the values they have, and the behaviors they exhibit, and the image they portray are the way to be these days, and in fact try to emulate much about them (and why would they not; they're glorified on TV night and day), and that's truly pathetic.

Clearly you don't see any (or much) difference between now and 50 years ago with regard to how common thugs are regarded. I see the difference as night and day.

All this has little to do with Tucson outside of the fact that there is unfortunately more gang activity in Tucson than there was 10 years ago, but it's still a great place in my view.

Why just blame media?

Why not blame the introduction of crack cocaine which eventually led to urban decay across America.

Or poor schools?
Or single parent homes?
Or cultural dependence on government assistance?
Or gentrification?

Its easy to blame the rapper with earrings and baggy pants on television instead of the real problems in America.

[azhiker]

Originally Posted by oklahomaboy405

Why just blame media?...

Trust me, I'm not just blaming the media (though they are complicit). I blame the low-lifes themselves.

Occam's Razor applies, and I don't go looking for convoluted reasons to fit a worldview.

[oklahomaboy405]

Originally Posted by azhiker

Trust me, I'm not just blaming the media (though they are complicit). I blame the low-lifes themselves.

Occam's Razor applies, and I don't go looking for convoluted reasons to fit a worldview.

A record label that spews garbage into our children's minds isn't an excuse or a convuluted reason, how about MTV?
Ockam's Razor is the reason that racism, sexism and ignorance for other culture sexists. Just because they wear suits and ties doesn't make media conglomorates any less responsible for hynotizing our youth.

If thug images didn't exist, there would be something else.