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ST:TOS and ST:TNG is like US diplomacy up to but not including Kissinger and afterwards.
Before Kissinger, usually anything that happened in the world, the ambassador in that country got to handle it. ST:TOS, the Captain, ie Kirk, out on the frontier handled it.
Kissinger and after, when there is a problem in the world, he/SECSTATE is out on the next airplane, arrives to take charge. ST:TNG, often they warp out an Admiral to assume overall command.
TOS and to some extent TNG happened in a frontier world. Kirk was a cavalry officer out making and breaking. Treaties with the Indians. The older people in Starfleet in Picard's generation came in at the very tail end of that. Picard himself rose to prominence as the last Starfleet captain to make first contact with a major power and also as the one to defeat them in that battle wnich helped ensure the Ferengi didn't start a wider war against the Federation. Even O'Brien had actually fought in a war against the Cardassians. Other than Dr. Crusher every other major character grew up in a time when the major powers of the galaxy knew peace.
The sad part is that TNG maybe explored too much so that the future series had to be displaced geographically or time to open up new possibilities to the extent that Voyager and Enterprise barely interact with anything we knew from traditional Star Trek.
You go from Custer (Kirk) to Pershing(Picard) to Patton(Sisko) to Scharzkopf(Janeway) to Washington(Archer).
Yes of course - I know that - I know who and what they are, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying is, did they have their own separate sector of space, or where they just another state in the union.
Well, that makes more sense. By "great bird" do you mean NBC? I enjoyed the premise of DS9 more, maybe just not quite its execution - but the whole teetering on the edge of a catastrophic loss seemed more realistic to me.
The Great Bird is nickname for a gene Roddenberry that came from somewhere. His whole original idea was that the mankind and Federation to a lesser extent were what would happen when hippie-ism and some defanged, nice version of Communism became the guiding force of mankind.
That sort of society wouldn't have purpose built warships no matter what they faced. But then their obvious superiority over all the backwards savages they encountered was sure to win through too. After the first or second season of TNG he died, and you started to see things change in respect to that.
The Federation itself was composed of mankind and a number of other species including Vulcans, Betazeds, Trill (the Dax aliens), Andorians, and numerous others. From TOS to the Dominion War, the FEderation, Klingons, and Romulans were all pretty much more less equal most of the time. The Ferengi were supposed to be as powerful (Rodeenberyy wanted evil capitalists to be the big bad guys of TNG), but they just came off as comical so ended up being a fairly loose and thus weak race even though their main ships could go toe to toe with any of the BIg 3. The Cardassians to me always came off as a rather powerful race, but somewhat less than a peer to the Big 3 (Iran compared to the U.S., Russia, and China say). There are a few other races that show up or are rarely mentioned that fall in this category like the Tholians (though I hear Enterprise made them more of a threat) and Breen.
Yes of course - I know that - I know who and what they are, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying is, did they have their own separate sector of space, or where they just another state in the union.
Well, that makes more sense. By "great bird" do you mean NBC? I enjoyed the premise of DS9 more, maybe just not quite its execution - but the whole teetering on the edge of a catastrophic loss seemed more realistic to me.
As for the first question, the Betazoid and most of the species you saw were members of the federation. It was something you chose to do, and applied. You were judged to be sufficently functional and within the rules that you were accepted or not. Once you were, you were citizens of the Federation. Federation law applied. Its much like the idea of state and federal. A state has things it chooses to make laws over, but federal laws overwrite them in a conflict. And as members of the federation you could travel to or move to any other place which was a member. So it was an empire but one made by invitation, not conquest, sharing an equal obligation to defend not just yourself but the Federation.
And 'the great bird" is Gene Roddenberry, without which there would never have been a Star Trek. It was his idea and he presented it to NBC and fought for it to be a series. I met him at an early convention and got his autograpy, lost the autograph, but still remember meeting him.
All societies are on the brink of catastrophy all the time, but of different degrees. The factor is time and how much is not so apparent. But some also choose not to see. You did in DS9 and some of the tng movies since they were so close, and the federation citizens who had never seen what it looked like until Bajor learned to see things differently.
TNG was the height of Rome when they did rule their world. Tos was the building of it. DS9 is the beginning of the fall. The survivors of that war would never ever see that blissful certainty that they were 'safe' anymore. The official books for the post war are very interesting and do take place in a far more dangerous world than the now cherished memory of the prewars Federation.
I find it really interesting that the people who work the franchise chose to see a much darker view of the 'world' after they'd torn it apart in the war with the Dominion.
I really really wish they'd done a series about the post Dominion war world and how different it had become from the ideal dream.
The Federation itself was composed of mankind and a number of other species including Vulcans, Betazeds, Trill (the Dax aliens), Andorians, and numerous others. From TOS to the Dominion War, the FEderation, Klingons, and Romulans were all pretty much more less equal most of the time. The Ferengi were supposed to be as powerful (Rodeenberyy wanted evil capitalists to be the big bad guys of TNG), but they just came off as comical so ended up being a fairly loose and thus weak race even though their main ships could go toe to toe with any of the BIg 3. The Cardassians to me always came off as a rather powerful race, but somewhat less than a peer to the Big 3 (Iran compared to the U.S., Russia, and China say). There are a few other races that show up or are rarely mentioned that fall in this category like the Tholians (though I hear Enterprise made them more of a threat) and Breen.
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Originally Posted by nightbird47
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As for the first question, the Betazoid and most of the species you saw were members of the federation. It was something you chose to do, and applied. You were judged to be sufficently functional and within the rules that you were accepted or not. Once you were, you were citizens of the Federation. Federation law applied. Its much like the idea of state and federal. A state has things it chooses to make laws over, but federal laws overwrite them in a conflict. And as members of the federation you could travel to or move to any other place which was a member. So it was an empire but one made by invitation, not conquest, sharing an equal obligation to defend not just yourself but the Federation.
Right. You pretty much had to ask to join the Federation and be allowed in, and at that point became regular and equal citizens like everyone else. I'm not trying to imply that as being arrogant or Western-centric, but it is different from a group of allies who all have their own cultures, their own technology and style of ship building and their own type of government. I remembered the Ferengi having ships just as strong as the Enterprise, but it wasn't long before they were subjugated into being a bunch of sniveling chumps that could be tricked by their love of money and women. The Klingons, though strong, were always just too violent and too bloodthirsty. The Romulans and Cardassians, just too evil and sneaky to ever be considered good. If perhaps there were another faction, that was mostly Federation friendly - yet had their own ideals, their own separate goals and their own motives - but most certainly not under Federation rule, I think the balance of power and tricky precariousness the captains faced could have been explored in some more creative and unique ways. The Vulcans were like this to an extent, and I believe there was one other race that the Enterprise (Scott Bakula) came into contact with, but I can't remember.
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And 'the great bird" is Gene Roddenberry
I only got 35% on that "Are you a Trekkie vs Star Wars Geek" webquiz so thanks for that.
Right. You pretty much had to ask to join the Federation and be allowed in, and at that point became regular and equal citizens like everyone else. I'm not trying to imply that as being arrogant or Western-centric, but it is different from a group of allies who all have their own cultures, their own technology and style of ship building and their own type of government. I remembered the Ferengi having ships just as strong as the Enterprise, but it wasn't long before they were subjugated into being a bunch of sniveling chumps that could be tricked by their love of money and women. The Klingons, though strong, were always just too violent and too bloodthirsty. The Romulans and Cardassians, just too evil and sneaky to ever be considered good. If perhaps there were another faction, that was mostly Federation friendly - yet had their own ideals, their own separate goals and their own motives - but most certainly not under Federation rule, I think the balance of power and tricky precariousness the captains faced could have been explored in some more creative and unique ways. The Vulcans were like this to an extent, and I believe there was one other race that the Enterprise (Scott Bakula) came into contact with, but I can't remember.
I only got 35% on that "Are you a Trekkie vs Star Wars Geek" webquiz so thanks for that.
I don't disagree with you, but Roddenberry's idea was that in such a society cultural differences would largely be erased. No one in the Federation has any real religious beliefs, everyone loves jazz and no other kinds of music, we'll all know the same three moves in a fistfight. It's a remarkable compromise between studio folks who realized how unentertaining this society is and the fact that Roddenberry was so earnest in his belief that this would be a good way of life that it isn't as obviously creepy as it should be and several entertaining TV shows came out of it.
There's certainly the argument to be made that the Federation isn't all it's cracked up to be which I think is part of what resonates with people about Klingons. Sure it is nice to a member of the Federation, but if you don't have a warp drive their Prime Directive means they won't even help your planet avoid getting smashed by a meteor they could destroy out of hand unless they can do it with no one knowing. Billions will die of disease and war that the Federation could save because they don't want to interfere with the development of your culture into one bland enough to join the Federation. Meanwhile, you can translate the Klingon word for the non-Klingon species they rule as "those who always surrender continuously." When they first find you, you can fight back or surrender, but in the end you will be a second class citizen who usually performs only manual labor. The trade off is the Klingons will protect your species from war, heal your sick, and ensure your children never go hungry. They're not good guys either, but they strike me as more realistic. If ships from both "nations" showed up in our solar system tomorrow, most people would probably choose to be conquered by the Klingons whil the Federation ship would hide behind Mars while its crew wrings its hands over the Prime Directive meaning they couldn't even tell us they existed.
I don't disagree with you, but Roddenberry's idea was that in such a society cultural differences would largely be erased. No one in the Federation has any real religious beliefs, everyone loves jazz and no other kinds of music, we'll all know the same three moves in a fistfight. It's a remarkable compromise between studio folks who realized how unentertaining this society is and the fact that Roddenberry was so earnest in his belief that this would be a good way of life that it isn't as obviously creepy as it should be and several entertaining TV shows came out of it.
There's certainly the argument to be made that the Federation isn't all it's cracked up to be which I think is part of what resonates with people about Klingons. Sure it is nice to a member of the Federation, but if you don't have a warp drive their Prime Directive means they won't even help your planet avoid getting smashed by a meteor they could destroy out of hand unless they can do it with no one knowing. Billions will die of disease and war that the Federation could save because they don't want to interfere with the development of your culture into one bland enough to join the Federation. Meanwhile, you can translate the Klingon word for the non-Klingon species they rule as "those who always surrender continuously." When they first find you, you can fight back or surrender, but in the end you will be a second class citizen who usually performs only manual labor. The trade off is the Klingons will protect your species from war, heal your sick, and ensure your children never go hungry. They're not good guys either, but they strike me as more realistic. If ships from both "nations" showed up in our solar system tomorrow, most people would probably choose to be conquered by the Klingons whil the Federation ship would hide behind Mars while its crew wrings its hands over the Prime Directive meaning they couldn't even tell us they existed.
The Prime Directive is indeed a double edged sword. Somewhere between 'It's none of our business what you want yourselves to be.' and 'You share enough of us we're willing to take you in but you accept our laws period, no exemptions, no questions.' is a lot of grey area. Yes, they made a successful empire by surgically picking the ones they wanted, and leaving out the trouble makers. But they set up a very uncertain future for it. And as many references have been made to, its still VERY Earth centric. During the war, until San Francisco was attacked and sent waves of shock around it, Admirals planned from the safety of Earth. They didn't see the dead, or the broken or what was left of their soldiers when the battle was done. They lived in splendid isolation. That was why Sisko was such a wave of change. He hadn't, he'd been out fighting for his home, which by then didn't happen to be earth anymore. He threw caution to the wind and said throw all we have at them because we lose if we don't. Still might lose but might win.
In the post tv story, Bajor joins the Federation. I'm still wondering how that is going to go. The people who lived through a generation of military occupation are not going to faintheartadly choose to obey. But of course they have the wormhole, and if the Feds want to control it they have to have Bajor on their side. I suspect that Bajor got a really quick review and a list of things we'll deal with later when they decided they'd fit.
Even back in the 60's when a lot of us were very anti Vietnam, the idea of the we help our own didn't fly too well. If you want to see what fans made of it, look up the compilations of fanfiction written then. One popular theme was those Starfleet/Federation individuals who bucked the rules and did what they though they should anyway. Like Kirk actually, though I think largely with him it was mostly ego. And when DS9 brought in the idea of what the Feds under their law does with people who were genetically enhansed, basically stripping them of pretty much any normal rights, it was a very dark mirror. But today we don't see that as unusual anymore.
The Great Bird is nickname for a gene Roddenberry that came from somewhere. His whole original idea was that the mankind and Federation to a lesser extent were what would happen when hippie-ism and some defanged, nice version of Communism became the guiding force of mankind.
That sort of society wouldn't have purpose built warships no matter what they faced. But then their obvious superiority over all the backwards savages they encountered was sure to win through too. After the first or second season of TNG he died, and you started to see things change in respect to that.
The Federation itself was composed of mankind and a number of other species including Vulcans, Betazeds, Trill (the Dax aliens), Andorians, and numerous others. From TOS to the Dominion War, the FEderation, Klingons, and Romulans were all pretty much more less equal most of the time. The Ferengi were supposed to be as powerful (Rodeenberyy wanted evil capitalists to be the big bad guys of TNG), but they just came off as comical so ended up being a fairly loose and thus weak race even though their main ships could go toe to toe with any of the BIg 3. The Cardassians to me always came off as a rather powerful race, but somewhat less than a peer to the Big 3 (Iran compared to the U.S., Russia, and China say). There are a few other races that show up or are rarely mentioned that fall in this category like the Tholians (though I hear Enterprise made them more of a threat) and Breen.
The Cardassians were basically Stalinist Russia. They could be cruel and vicious to their captives since their own society was generally cruel and vicious to them. Their buildings are massive but plain. They never offer any option to the conquered but subjagation. The best a Bajoran could do was be a traitor, but it still didn't buy membership. Even someone as powerful as Tain could never acknowledge his illegitimate son.
They made a perfect target for the Dominon to choose to take over as their 'allies' and give them a staging post for their invasion.
Another reason I wish I had watched more DS9. After a season or two I had mostly drifted out of Star Trek and into Babylon 5 (which is an excellent show), but the only episode I had seen to then that even mentioned the Dominion was Quark and his brother negotiating a trade deal with a planet in the Gamma Quadrant that had to get approval from the Dominion before they could. They sounded more like a crime syndicate than anything else, I only caught maybe half a dozen episodes in the run up and Dominion War .
Still I never saw the Cardassians as a peer to any of the Big 3. Maybe I was wrong. That post Dominion War series sounds interesting though personally I'd really like to see a Maquis series. Another group the Powers that be in the Federation abandoned, and it would be a relatively small enough scale as to really dive into some of their planets.
I guess I see the "alternate" world as being more realistic. It should've been that way all the time. Maybe if the Klingon Alliance wasn't so tenuous. Maybe if the Romulans weren't such a threat. Maybe if the Cardacians didn't exist at all. The only true ally they had were the Vulcans, and there just weren't enough of them, nor were they capable or willing to get their hands dirty in case of all out war.
I love trek and I also love the new trek, and its going to be really really interesting to see how they change the way things happened. The Vulcan's were a major influence on the forming of the Federation, and they are mostly gone now. Spock isn't even trying to act like one. In his world he's an outsider with no family but his compatriots to call home. So he lives in their world.
And they've had a horrendous public attack on their home planet. Without doubt, the real culprets are not going to be known. Section 31 has already become a visible (if selectively) player. Where in the tng version, their existance is guarded since they run so much against the soul of the Federation publically at least, and those who make the rules don't want that broken. In the movie version, they've already pulled a power play. Will 31 be the shadow behind the public image that people know is there, but would rather not ever see any closer?
I'm hoping for a good run of movies and maybe a tv show of the alternative.
The other think I'd LOVE is the trek universe post war, from both its newest outpost, Bajor to the places which now are dealing with their losses which were taken. I assume the Founders are still dying, but that its not public knowledge. It would be cool if they'd do the Typhoon Pack series in the books.
Another reason I wish I had watched more DS9. After a season or two I had mostly drifted out of Star Trek and into Babylon 5 (which is an excellent show), but the only episode I had seen to then that even mentioned the Dominion was Quark and his brother negotiating a trade deal with a planet in the Gamma Quadrant that had to get approval from the Dominion before they could. They sounded more like a crime syndicate than anything else, I only caught maybe half a dozen episodes in the run up and Dominion War .
Still I never saw the Cardassians as a peer to any of the Big 3. Maybe I was wrong. That post Dominion War series sounds interesting though personally I'd really like to see a Maquis series. Another group the Powers that be in the Federation abandoned, and it would be a relatively small enough scale as to really dive into some of their planets.
DS9 took a while to find its groove.. Unfortunately, I had given up on it by the time it did.. I watched the entire series sometime around 2000 when it was on every night.. The first 2 seasons were kinda bad, but with some good stories.. I didn't like the addition of Worf and also didn't like the loss of Terry Farrell for the last season. They should have just written Dax out rather than recast.
I always thought that TNG was overall good. DS9 had incredible writing, but poor acting in most places.. Sisko grew on me, I thought Kira was good, O'Brien was an incredibly deep character.. Bashir sucked.. Quark was good.. The makeup for Odo was bad.
Voyager was the opposite, and really was the "Maquis series" that you mention.. Great acting for the most part.. Horrible scripts. There were some gems in there.. But, they wound up getting into stunt casting. Jeri Ryan was stunt casting, even though that character wound up being very good, if overused. But, they'd wind up with wrestlers playing parts since wrestling was on the same network. The Doctor was very good and had some great stories. Harry Kim.. Meh.. But he had one of the best stories.. They got it right by dropping Kes as a character. Chakotay was a bad character, IMO.. I always hated the Chakotay episodes.
Message in a Bottle, The Omega Directive and Timeless are three of the top Voyager episodes, in my book.
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