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Old 08-09-2017, 04:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by chud View Post
We do?
There are theories, but I don't think anything has been confirmed at this point.
I thought the theory was that snow had targaryan blood, and not really ned stark's kid. I vaguely remember the tower scene where ned dueled. I think snow was in the tower, and ned agreed to take care of him. he became "snow" to hide his true lineage. Is there more theories?


it also explains why melissendra sp? might have been able to bring him back. if she could bring anyone back, you'd have a pretty awesome army. If they die, just revive them. lol
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Old 08-09-2017, 04:56 PM
 
Location: On the road
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rya96797 View Post
I thought the theory was that snow had targaryan blood, and not really ned stark's kid. I vaguely remember the tower scene where ned dueled. I think snow was in the tower, and ned agreed to take care of him. he became "snow" to hide his true lineage. Is there more theories?


it also explains why melissendra sp? might have been able to bring him back. if she could bring anyone back, you'd have a pretty awesome army. If they die, just revive them. lol
That is not a theory. It was in Bran's vision. Jon is son of Daenerys' brother, Rhaegar, and Ned's Sister, Lyanna.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:03 PM
 
Location: NJ/NY
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Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
That is not a theory. It was in Bran's vision. Jon is son of Daenerys' brother, Rhaegar, and Ned's Sister, Lyanna.
I think we only know for sure about Lyanna being the mother. Rhaegar is the assumed father but we don't know for sure.

Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 08-09-2017 at 05:54 PM..
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Good point. Why was Tyrion immediately declared Joffrey's murderer? How would Littlefinger have arranged it?

The Purple Wedding included a special play sponsored by Joffrey, performed by dwarves who depicted the War of the Five Kings. Joffrey kept trying to embarrass his uncle Tyrion, joking that the Lannister dwarf should take part in the farcical performance. When Tyrion outwitted and subsequently embarrassed Joffrey in front of the entire party, the nephew became even more nasty to his uncle, dumping a cup of wine on Tyrion's head and forcing him to act as his cup-bearer.

Yadda, yadda, yadda...the pigeon pie makes its appearance, Joffrey uses his new sword to cut it open, while Tyrion and Sansa try to leave unnoticed. Joffrey sees them leaving and, not having humiliated his uncle enough, demands that Tyrion bring him another cup of wine, which he does. Joffrey drinks the wine, poisoned by Oleanna while everyone was watching the pie cutting, and subsequently dies, but, while dying, has time to point an accusing finger at Tyrion. Cersei immediately picks up on this and accuses Tyrion and Sansa of poisoning the King.
I remember all that, however, none of it would be evidence of Tyrion's guilt because it was not an impulsive murder. It could not have been Tyrion reacting to the humiliation because it had been planned before the humiliation took place. The court which tried Tyrion was aware of this, they had the necklace which Pycelle testified was found on the body of Dontos. The very existence of a co-conspirator acting before the humiliation took place rules that out as a motive for Tyrion.

If Tyrion had been represented by a competent attorney, or a less hubristic champion, he could have beaten the rap.

And oh....an added thought. Joffrey was hardly in need of any push from Littlefinger to indulge in Uncle Dwarf humiliation. Remember at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding when he made off with the platform Tyrion was to use for the cloaking of Sansa?

Last edited by Grandstander; 08-09-2017 at 05:52 PM..
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
That is not a theory. It was in Bran's vision. Jon is son of Daenerys' brother, Rhaegar, and Ned's Sister, Lyanna.
Which makes Daenerys his aunt, Ned his uncle rather than his father, and changes his half sisters and brothers into cousins. The one constant is Benjen Stark, who was and remains Jon's uncle.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I remember all that, however, none of it would be evidence of Tyrion's guilt because it was not an impulsive murder. It could not have been Tyrion reacting to the humiliation because it had been planned before the humiliation took place. The court which tried Tyrion was aware of this, they had the necklace which Pycelle testified was found on the body of Dontos. The very existence of a co-conspirator acting before the humiliation took place rules that out as a motive for Tyrion.
Yes, maybe that's all true. But the question is not just what did they know, but when did they find out what they knew.

Tyrion was accused of the crime before anyone knew about the poison necklace or about Dontos. I believe that we've all seen that once Cersei has a notion that someone needs to die, she's not going to let something like evidence or reason deflect her from her purpose.

And once Tyrion was in the dock for the crime, I don't think anyone in Westeros cared that his modus for murder had changed from impulsive to calculated - it was enough that they had caught the right murderer.

Quote:
If Tyrion had been represented by a competent attorney, or a less hubristic champion, he could have beaten the rap.
I don't believe that there's are any attorneys in all of Westeros. We've seen Tyrion on trial twice; not once did he ask for, seek, or receive legal counsel.

Maybe in a world where the law is whatever the current ruling lord says it is, there's no actual need for trial lawyers.

Quote:
And oh....an added thought. Joffrey was hardly in need of any push from Littlefinger to indulge in Uncle Dwarf humiliation. Remember at Tyrion and Sansa's wedding when he made off with the platform Tyrion was to use for the cloaking of Sansa?
Joffrey didn't need prompting to humiliate Tyrion, but Littlefinger's sponsorship of the dwarf play IMO assured that it would have occurred at the moment Littlefinger required it. Again, this assumption relies on information from the book series, so it may be non-canonical to the HBO series.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:27 PM
 
595 posts, read 355,360 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsMac View Post
That is not a theory. It was in Bran's vision. Jon is son of Daenerys' brother, Rhaegar, and Ned's Sister, Lyanna.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
I think we only know for sure about Lyanna being the mother. Rhaegar is the assumed father but we don't know for sure.
sorry, lol my memory is a bit foggy on previous seasons. thanks guys
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Yes, maybe that's all true. But the question is not just what did they know, but when did they find out what they knew.

Tyrion was accused of the crime before anyone knew about the poison necklace or about Dontos. I believe that we've all seen that once Cersei has a notion that someone needs to die, she's not going to let something like evidence or reason deflect her from her purpose.

And once Tyrion was in the dock for the crime, I don't think anyone in Westeros cared that his modus for murder had changed from impulsive to calculated - it was enough that they had caught the right murderer.
I wasn't making an argument for what the court should or should not have believed, I was making an argument that if the humiliation of Tyrion at the wedding reception was part of Littlefinger's scheme to frame Tyrion, it actually played no part.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:49 PM
 
5,563 posts, read 7,647,609 times
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Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
I think we only know for sure about Lyanna being the mother. Rhaegar is the assumed father but we don't know for sure.
HBO has put that information out.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:52 PM
 
5,092 posts, read 4,364,365 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I wasn't making an argument for what the court should or should not have believed, I was making an argument that if the humiliation of Tyrion at the wedding reception was part of Littlefinger's scheme to frame Tyrion, it actually played no part.
Petyr Baelish may or may not have forced a confrontation between uncle dwarf and nephew psychopath, but he did anticipate and plan for Sansa's need to flee King's Landing. Littlefinger had his ship ready for departure and had sent the court jester to bring her to his departing ship. As I see it, Sansa would only have had reason to flee if she or her husband had been immediately accused of participating in the murder; otherwise, her husband's position as a Lannister, as Master of Coin, and as uncle to the king should have protected her.

What else could have been the trigger that would have pointed the finger of guilt at Sansa? How would Littlefinger have guaranteed Sansa's need for speed away from the scene of the crime?
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