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Jon's mother is Starks sister, that makes him a Stark?
Half Stark and half targaryan. Pretty advantageous.
Makes it even easier. Little finger will do whatever she asks of him.
Comparing it to the beginning is pointless. Again, Starks have shown more loyalty to family than many of the other houses. As far as Sansa knows right now, Jon is the last of her family, bastard or not.
You're also comparing a 13 year old with someone far maturer now.
I think you are overestimating Sansa's ability to co-opt Littlefinger---
He has an agenda---he wants her to agree to HIS agenda---he only brought the Knights of the Vale into that battle because it would save Sansa who he has ultimate design on...
Most people think Littlefinger sees himself as King of the North with Sansa as his queen since she has noble blood and he doesn't...but I keep thinking about his slavish infatuation with Catelyn Stark--I wonder if Littlefinger maybe has reason to think that Sansa is his child and not Ned Stark's...if so---the audience has been allowed to view his interest in her as a pseudo-sexual one transferred from her mother...
But maybe he loves her because she is his child....and a means to an end even in that guise...
But agree--that at this point Sansa doesn't know Bran nor Arya are alive...I think she knew that Riccon was killed by Ramsey
LOL. defining your argument to fit a narrower scope is still changing it.
I understand that you are upset, but its just a Book/TV show. It shouldnt hurt your pride to admit you are wrong, especially when you have been quoted as such.
You didn't provide any quotes from me, you characterized what I wrote. Provide the quote that seems to have confused you so badly, perhaps I can get you to finally understand.
You are missing the point. Line of succession goes through true born children. The fact that Jon is King over Sansa means that the north does not care. They chose a leader, meaning Bran being alive means nothing.
And to be clear, im not talking about what Sam told or didnt tell. Theon told Sansa outright that both brothers escaped, and she has no reason to believe Bran is dead especially when Rickon showed up alive(now dead).
You seemed to have forgotten the whole part about the entire North knowing that Theon didnt kill Bran and Rickon, after seeing one alive during the Battle of the Bastards.
At worst, all of this was explained off screen, but it is clear that Jon at least knows Bran didnt die years ago .
Re line of succession---
This is type of argument that goes in a circle---
Jon won the Battle of the Bastards and took back the Stark estate by right of might---
Blood--legal or bar sinister--has nothing to do with why he is Lord of the North to some extent
Sansa might be the "heir" to Winterfell but Winterfell was lost by conquest once and reclaimed not by Sansa--
The Knights of the Vale were not the conquering force in themselves--just the deciding effort for Jon's forces
Just like when Henry Tudor invaded and conquered England---he had a very slight claim to the throne which his mother emphasized over and over--but Henry's claim as King rested on his overthrow of legitimate power vested in Richard III conquered on Bosworth Field and subsequently killed...
Henry became king because he took the crown--
Just as William the Conqueror claimed the throne by conquest after some trumped up claim Edward had willed him England when he died and the English Wittan reneged... Conquest trumps any bloodline...
Same with Jon---he and his forces conquered Ramsey's forces and became the ultimate power in the North--
The fact that he is a bastard was overlooked because "might makes right"...
AND we don't know that he actually IS a bastard----his mother and father could have been married and thus he would be the legitimate Targaryan heir and a legal cousin to Sansa...
In claiming Jon is a bastard, people are missing a lot of information....
Status:
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(set 21 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
You didn't provide any quotes from me, you characterized what I wrote. Provide the quote that seems to have confused you so badly, perhaps I can get you to finally understand.
No, i posted a direct quote from your post. You said "leadership of the North". You never mentioned the position of Lord of Winterfell itself until I had already said you were wrong.
At best, your argument should be that you didnt make youself clear in previous statements, but it is king of hard to do that when you said "leadership in the North" and not "leadership of winterfell"
Status:
"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 21 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,550 posts, read 16,536,658 times
Reputation: 6032
Quote:
Originally Posted by loves2read
Re line of succession---
This is type of argument that goes in a circle---
Jon won the Battle of the Bastards and took back the Stark estate by right of might---
Blood--legal or bar sinister--has nothing to do with why he is Lord of the North to some extent
Sansa might be the "heir" to Winterfell but Winterfell was lost by conquest once and reclaimed not by Sansa--
The Knights of the Vale were not the conquering force in themselves--just the deciding effort for Jon's forces
Just like when Henry Tudor invaded and conquered England---he had a very slight claim to the throne which his mother emphasized over and over--but Henry's claim as King rested on his overthrow of legitimate power vested in Richard III conquered on Bosworth Field and subsequently killed...
Henry became king because he took the crown--
Just as William the Conqueror claimed the throne by conquest after some trumped up claim Edward had willed him England when he died and the English Wittan reneged... Conquest trumps any bloodline...
Same with Jon---he and his forces conquered Ramsey's forces and became the ultimate power in the North--
The fact that he is a bastard was overlooked because "might makes right"...
AND we don't know that he actually IS a bastard----his mother and father could have been married and thus he would be the legitimate Targaryan heir and a legal cousin to Sansa...
In claiming Jon is a bastard, people are missing a lot of information....
Agree on the first half, that is why I said the North chose him.
As for the secret marriage part, that is a fan theory supported by nothing other than wishful thinking.
Until something in the Show or books backs it up, its a fan theory.
I think you are overestimating Sansa's ability to co-opt Littlefinger---
He has an agenda---he wants her to agree to HIS agenda---he only brought the Knights of the Vale into that battle because it would save Sansa who he has ultimate design on...
Most people think Littlefinger sees himself as King of the North with Sansa as his queen since she has noble blood and he doesn't...but I keep thinking about his slavish infatuation with Catelyn Stark--I wonder if Littlefinger maybe has reason to think that Sansa is his child and not Ned Stark's...if so---the audience has been allowed to view his interest in her as a pseudo-sexual one transferred from her mother...
But maybe he loves her because she is his child....and a means to an end even in that guise...
But agree--that at this point Sansa doesn't know Bran nor Arya are alive...I think she knew that Riccon was killed by Ramsey
I'm not so sure I buy the "daughter" theory. A dad wouldn't send his daughter off to be raped and tortured by Ramsay Bolton.
No, i posted a direct quote from your post. You said "leadership of the North". You never mentioned the position of Lord of Winterfell itself until I had already said you were wrong.
At best, your argument should be that you didnt make youself clear in previous statements, but it is king of hard to do that when you said "leadership in the North" and not "leadership of winterfell"
I requested that you provide the specific quotes. Apparently you are unable or unwilling to do so. The actual reason of course is that I never contradicted myself, nor changed anything I wrote. If you could find where I did what you claimed, you would have posted it. So either do it or knock off your nonsense.
Status:
"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 21 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,550 posts, read 16,536,658 times
Reputation: 6032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
I requested that you provide the specific quotes. Apparently you are unable or unwilling to do so. The actual reason of course is that I never contradicted myself, nor changed anything I wrote. If you could find where I did what you claimed, you would have posted it. So either do it or knock off your nonsense.
It is put up or shut up time.
I had already done so on the previous page,and that was long before you requested it. I did it then to show that you were indeed wrong. not sure why you are being hostile . Did you honestly not see it. Even worse, do you not remember your own words ???? Did you think I wrote a fake statement,put it within the site quotations and claimed it was yours ?????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
The screwup was forgetting that word of Bran's arrival would have been sent to Winterfell immediately. They could not show this because they are working on a Jon/Sansa conflict regarding leadership in the North. If word of Bran's survival had come through as we might logically expect, it would have thrown a monkey wrench into the storyline they were running.
So, they just hoped that no one would notice this logical goof.
again, you didnt say Winterfell, you said the North
I had already done so on the previous page, not sure why you are being hostile . Did you honestly not see it. Even worse, do you not remember your own words ????
again, you didnt say Winterfell, you said the North
And I meant north. Jon is not a rival with Sansa for the Lordship of Winterfell....Brandon is.
Jon and Sansa are rivals for the leadership of the north in that she has been portrayed as seemingly resentful of Jon's position as King in the North and apparently feels that her claim to the leadership of Winterfell, entitles her to a position of influence over the entire north.
You really didn't understand this? All this fuss is over your failure to grasp what was being said?
Jon's mother is Starks sister, that makes him a Stark?
Half Stark and half targaryan. Pretty advantageous.
Makes it even easier. Little finger will do whatever she asks of him.
Comparing it to the beginning is pointless. Again, Starks have shown more loyalty to family than many of the other houses. As far as Sansa knows right now, Jon is the last of her family, bastard or not.
You're also comparing a 13 year old with someone far maturer now.
Oh you're right. I meant to ask who knows he's a Targaryaen (sp?)?
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