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Unlikeable? I don't know a single person that didn't love Tony.
You don't? You've asked everyone you know their opinion of Tony Soprano? That's weird.
It's also wrong. One of the challenges of The Sopranos, as acknowledged by the production team, was dealing with an unlikeable lead.
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Originally Posted by redplum33
Are you sure you watched the series?
Why? Because my aesthetic opinion of it is different than yours? That's self-absorbed.
I don't need protagonist to be sympathetic but I do like to be able to empathize. Tony was interesting. Likeable? Not to me. Not to a lot of people.
Take the Breaking Bad example I mentioned previously. Walter White is a bad guy. He watches Jane woman die even though he could have prevented it because her death is convenient to him. He poisons a child. He sells out Jesse to Jack's gang. Nonetheless, he initially got into the game for his family, and in order to survive emotionally he had to keep telling himself that even when it was no longer true. He ultimately redeemed himself, doing the right thing (at that point) for his daughter and his son, helping his wife (by intentionally misleading law enforcement to throw them off the fact that she was involved in some of his criminal activity, mostly laundering the money) and telling her that she was right about him, and by saving Jesse. He was not a sociopath. Breaking Bad is a classic tragedy. The hero goes astray, finally acknowledges his errors, and does what he can to put them right, however little may be done in the end. Tony? He was emotionally cruel to most women. He would beat half to death an employee for no reason other than he was in a bad mood. He was a sociopath. There was no redeeming undercurrent. He wasn't a good guy gone bad, he was just a terrible human being from beginning to end. Where was the arc? He was the same character at the end as he was at the beginning.
Tony Soprano was more unlikeable than Don Draper, and that's saying something. Still, even Don had the classic arc. And it's not even about the sociopath aspect. Dexter Morgan was a sociopath, but he was a self-aware sociopath who longed to feel what 'humans' (as he called non-sociopaths) feel and worked toward that end. Not Tony. [I'm not saying Dexter was better than The Sopranos - though it had its moments, the issues with the writing were so severe that it's not even close.]
This isn't to say that I didn't like The Sopranos. As noted, I did. That one aspect of the series keeps it from being, for me, a five-star series. Four stars is still pretty good, though. Nor do I expect everyone to find Tony Soprano unlikeable just because I do. I don't hold to the notion that my enjoyment or lack thereof of fiction is 'correct' and that differing takes are 'incorrect'.
. There was no redeeming undercurrent. He wasn't a good guy gone bad, he was just a terrible human being from beginning to end. Where was the arc? He was the same character at the end as he was at the beginning.
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I understand what you are saying and it strikes me as a valid point of view. Oscar Wilde held that it was useless to try and divide people into good and bad, people are either charming or tedious. Tony Soprano, while ultimately a selfish, childish man, was infused by the writers with a certain amount of charm. He had a sense of humor, he had genuine love relationships, he had lines he would not cross, illustrated by the fact he never had his mother whacked, or his Uncle June, even after they had plotted to kill him. When his temper wasn't in control, he could be the most reasonable man in the room.
Factor in Tony being surrounded by people who were as bad, or far worse than himself, and he gains more sympathy.
Those factors are whats in play when one admits that they "liked" Tony. I mean, weren't we all rooting for the Corleones over The Turk, The Tattaglias, Barzini and Hyman Roth? Why? Because they were any more moral or acceptable than their enemies? No, it was because we were being presented the story through the eyes of the Corleones. They became our mobsters, the home team, the others were the rivals. Familiarity breeds sympathy.
I understand what you are saying and it strikes me as a valid point of view. Oscar Wilde held that it was useless to try and divide people into good and bad, people are either charming or tedious. Tony Soprano, while ultimately a selfish, childish man, was infused by the writers with a certain amount of charm. He had a sense of humor, he had genuine love relationships, he had lines he would not cross, illustrated by the fact he never had his mother whacked, or his Uncle June, even after they had plotted to kill him. When his temper wasn't in control, he could be the most reasonable man in the room.
Factor in Tony being surrounded by people who were as bad, or far worse than himself, and he gains more sympathy.
Those factors are whats in play when one admits that they "liked" Tony. I mean, weren't we all rooting for the Corleones over The Turk, The Tattaglias, Barzini and Hyman Roth? Why? Because they were any more moral or acceptable than their enemies? No, it was because we were being presented the story through the eyes of the Corleones. They became our mobsters, the home team, the others were the rivals. Familiarity breeds sympathy.
I agree with this post. Though I wasn’t rooting for, or expecting expecting the assasination of Hyman Roth.
After all, in real life, Meyer Lansky outlived them all, dying of lung cancer at the ripe old age of 80. And I actually liked the guy. He was smart, like Lansky.
But to illustrate your point even further, we were all rooting for Michael over Moe Green (Bugsy Seigel in real life). BUT, if you watch the movie ‘Bugsy’, you were likely rooting for Bugsy over Charlie (Lucky) Luciano, because the story was viewed through Bugsy’s....sorry, through Ben’s...perspective.
[snip] Those factors are whats in play when one admits that they "liked" Tony. I mean, weren't we all rooting for the Corleones over The Turk, The Tattaglias, Barzini and Hyman Roth? Why? Because they were any more moral or acceptable than their enemies? No, it was because we were being presented the story through the eyes of the Corleones. They became our mobsters, the home team, the others were the rivals. Familiarity breeds sympathy.
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Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD
[snip] But to illustrate your point even further, we were all rooting for Michael over Moe Green (Bugsy Seigel in real life). BUT, if you watch the movie ‘Bugsy’, you were likely rooting for Bugsy over Charlie (Lucky) Luciano, because the story was viewed through Bugsy’s....sorry, through Ben’s...perspective.
Absolutely! We're watching works of fiction, which means being presented with a (more or less made up) story told from a point of view. That's what's so fascinating--that we can watch the same story told from different perspectives, and root for the morally opposite characters.
Was Tony really still the same person after all those years? Remember the reason why his psychoanalyst decided to stop the treatments? Her own analyst had told her about an article (really unprofessionally, IMO. You don't terminate a relationship with a patient just because of an article in a journal!) claiming that sociopaths don't benefit from therapy, it just enables them to rationalize their bad deeds. I think that was the clue we were supposed to pick up on--that Tony may be just a charming sociopath, and he has just learned the psychoanalytical lingo, enough to justify what he has been doing all along. So I think there is a character arc after all. Tony has learned something!
Was Tony really still the same person after all those years? Remember the reason why his psychoanalyst decided to stop the treatments? Her own analyst had told her about an article (really unprofessionally, IMO. You don't terminate a relationship with a patient just because of an article in a journal!) claiming that sociopaths don't benefit from therapy, it just enables them to rationalize their bad deeds. I think that was the clue we were supposed to pick up on--that Tony may be just a charming sociopath, and he has just learned the psychoanalytical lingo, enough to justify what he has been doing all along. So I think there is a character arc after all. Tony has learned something!
Dr. Melfi was aware of the above, yet took on Tony anyway. Remember her first reaction? She asked what the goal of the therapy would be...to create a better adjusted gangster? Here is where Tony's charm came into play once more. Melfi was torn between moral contempt for what Tony did, and an opportunity to get inside the head of a fascinating psychological subject who came with an aura of forbidden romance. She was so hooked that she even returned to the sessions after having to "go on the lam" because her life had been placed in danger. She did not end the sessions even after several instances of Tony behaving inappropriately or threateningly around her. In essence, Melfi was reduced to the high school girl who is warned not to go out with the leather wearing, motorcycle riding delinquent, but is unable to resist.
Well I just finally finished this series. Started it some 2.5 years ago. All in all, I really enjoyed. I never knew how the final scene ended. I only knew that there was some controversy about. Some people feeling it was left open without any real ending.
I would say I agree. Was Tony whacked in the restaurant? Possibly. I've read the reasons suggesting why this is likely including Tony talking about his favorite scene in Godfather. Was he not whacked? Possibly as well. In the end I'm not sure it matters. Overall, I didn't care for the last two episodes or so of the final season. It felt jumbled. It didn't seem to go with the flow of all the previous episodes leading up to the finale. It felt to me like the writers were trying to end the series as quickly as possible.
I always wanted that ex-Russian army guy that Chris and Paulie lost in the woods to make a re-appearance at some point. But as the seasons went on I knew that was less and less likely.
Also, as far as the final scene goes. It did trick me just as it did many viewers when it originally aired. But instead of thinking the cable or satellite malfunctioned I thought my fire stick had skipped ahead up. I rewound and then realized that was actually the end.
Tony was definitely a bastard but he was a likable bastard. I think the interesting thing is that you are often shaped by your surroundings and upbringing as a child. I have no doubt that Tony's upbringing with his Dad and Mom was rather cruel. I'm sure he saw and heard a lot of things he should not have. So I guess that is how Tony ended up that way. But other than the yelling and arguing with Carmela, he did his best to hide his real job from his kids. They were aware but they never really got the full details or visuals. And Tony always wanted better for his kids.
I did like how Christopher went out. And Tony's reasoning as to why he had to do it made sense. Of course with his injury's, it seemed likely he wouldn't have survived anyway.
^^^^^^Good summation. One of the strengths of the Sopranos was their excellent cast, and the excellent actors they brought in for various seasons that would ultimately get whacked, go back to jail (Robert Loggia), or some other happenstance. The list is impressive.
^^^^^^Good summation. One of the strengths of the Sopranos was their excellent cast, and the excellent actors they brought in for various seasons that would ultimately get whacked, go back to jail (Robert Loggia), or some other happenstance. The list is impressive.
I would totally watch a sequel, or prequel.
Yeah. I loved of all the former characters who really took on large roles second to only Tony for a few episodes or half a season and then were ultimately whacked. Ralphie, Puss, Furio (escaped before it got to ugly for him!), Richie, Vito etc.
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