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Old Yesterday, 10:08 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
and yet the jones act has the result of increasing outsourcing. there's nothing to take advantage of, the mainland gets around it by shipping less by boat and more by truck and rail. no doubt there are losers on the mainland as well.

https://www.cato.org/blog/new-report...st-puerto-rico




Jones Act creates and protects 500,000 American jobs. The Jones Act produces $100 billion in economic output for the U.S. annually with an average yearly salary of $80,000 per year and those workers pay taxes. The same taxes that go to Puerto Rico in federal aid every year.



yeah, I'm sure the globalists want to outsource that to make bigger profits for themselves.


one again, if the Jones Act is so bad for Puerto Rico, why does Hawaii and Puerto Rico have the highest purchasing power than any Latin American Country. Consumers in P.R. buy lots of things.
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Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
Jones Act creates and protects 500,000 American jobs. The Jones Act produces $100 billion in economic output for the U.S. annually with an average yearly salary of $80,000 per year and those workers pay taxes. The same taxes that go to Puerto Rico in federal aid every year.



yeah, I'm sure the globalists want to outsource that to make bigger profits for themselves.


one again, if the Jones Act is so bad for Puerto Rico, why does Hawaii and Puerto Rico have the highest purchasing power than any Latin American Country. Consumers in P.R. buy lots of things.
This is faulty logic, the question should be, why is PR the Poorest part of the US?
you are comparing PR to entities outside of the US to claim that the Jones act is not bad.
you have to compare it to other parts of the US. Being an island is not enough to support the claim that thats the reason for PR issues.

the only reason PR has high purchasing power (compared to some latam countries is the subsidies)
basically is a full island of welfare queens.

Actually when it comes to places to live, many latam countries are better than PR,
PPP is not the only thing that matters and PR is not attracting anyone.
american tourist/retirees prefer other countries that PR by far and that exactly its issue.
the inability to attract american investment/tourism despite having all the facilities if the world.

remember the issue of PR, the inability of the government to raise funds to pay its debts after financing its operation with loans.
why? because there is no economic activity in the island, there is nothing to tax. just federal aid money moving around.

PR unemployment rate is 16%
43.5% of its residents live below the poverty line, more than double that of Louisiana and Mississippi.
The island’s debt load represents $12,000 per capita, making it one of the most indebted countries in the world.
As a U.S. territory, the island uses the U.S. dollar, That means it can’t devalue its currency in a bid to improve competitiveness something latam countries do often
thats why you cant use the exchange rate as a metric of well being. Devaluating your currency can promote investment and economic growth. (PR cant).

PR does not offer any strategic advantage to motivate anyone to invest/live there. Its not cheap, not a lot of qualified human resources, its not a particularly attractive tourist destination, poor, high crime. Is not because of the Jones act that PR is in its current situation, but flexibility in commerce would be a good point to start changing things.

Last edited by Snapshoot; Yesterday at 02:55 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 03:05 PM
 
10,099 posts, read 3,412,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
This is faulty logic, the question should be, why is PR the Poorest part of the US?
you are comparing PR to entities outside of the US to claim that the Jones act is not bad.
you have to compare it to other parts of the US. Being an island is not enough to support the claim that thats the reason for PR issues.

the only reason PR has high purchasing power (compared to some latam countries is the subsidies)
basically is a full island of welfare queens.

Actually when it comes to places to live, many latam countries are better than PR,
PPP is not the only thing that matters and PR is not attracting anyone.
american tourist/retirees prefer other countries that PR by far and that exactly its issue.
the inability to attract american investment/tourism despite having all the facilities if the world.

remember the issue of PR, the inability of the government to raise funds to pay its debts after financing its operation with loans.
why? because there is no economic activity in the island, there is nothing to tax. just federal aid money moving around.



you again, lol. Why a territory is poorer than a state? do you really need somebody to explain that to you? if there wasn't any difference the U.S.A would be 13 states with 37 territories. Why 37 territories bother to be a state and have political power and representation if there wasn't any difference according to you?



I didn't know you can have Purchasing Power with food stamps. That's news to me. I didn't know you can buy unlimited products and services in the Free Market with food stamps.



by the way, a lot of states economies are run by subsidies from the federal government. I don't hear anybody complaining about it. hell, the American education system and colleges are run mainly by subsidies from the federal government. Without that they all be out of business and college administrators be out of jobs.



What Latin countries are better to live than Puerto Rico? and I don't mean as a tourist with a U.S. Passport with American money to spend over there at the Hyatt resort apart from the masses. I mean living in the real country and living on their social programs and working getting paid with their currency which is a lot lower than the U.S. dollar.


of course, American tourists and retirees like Latin Countries, it's cheap labor, cheap properties and tax incentives from the government to come down to invest. Explain how does that help the average Latino working class down there and the housing market building high-end condos in private communities next to poor slumps? I'm sure that's great for the poor Latinos down there.




the problem in P.R. is not raising revenues, it's government spending and too much government control. Puerto Rico produces $126 billion a year ( 75th ranked in the world) and has a Per capita of $38,100 (29th in the world) using PPP GDP data from the World Bank, since you like that source so much. A lot of Latino Countries and 3rd world countries in the world would love to be in those shoes.


Puerto Rico has problems like any country in the world but compared to the rest of the Latin Republic problems. I say I rather have Puerto Rico's problems than theirs.


since you don't know much about Puerto Rican history, you keep yapping that it's the end of the world for Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico had a much worse economy in 1898 and during the Great Depression than what they have now and they always bounced back under worse circumstances. So your unfounded predictions means nothing to me.
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Old Yesterday, 03:44 PM
 
111 posts, read 13,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
you again, lol. Why a territory is poorer than a state? do you really need somebody to explain that to you? if there wasn't any difference the U.S.A would be 13 states with 37 territories. Why 37 territories bother to be a state and have political power and representation if there wasn't any difference according to you?



I didn't know you can have Purchasing Power with food stamps. That's news to me. I didn't know you can buy unlimited products and services in the Free Market with food stamps.



by the way, a lot of states economies are run by subsidies from the federal government. I don't hear anybody complaining about it. hell, the American education system and colleges are run mainly by subsidies from the federal government. Without that they all be out of business and college administrators be out of jobs.



What Latin countries are better to live than Puerto Rico? and I don't mean as a tourist with a U.S. Passport with American money to spend over there at the Hyatt resort apart from the masses. I mean living in the real country and living on their social programs and working getting paid with their currency which is a lot lower than the U.S. dollar.


of course, American tourists and retirees like Latin Countries, it's cheap labor, cheap properties and tax incentives from the government to come down to invest. Explain how does that help the average Latino working class down there and the housing market building high-end condos in private communities next to poor slumps? I'm sure that's great for the poor Latinos down there.




the problem in P.R. is not raising revenues, it's government spending and too much government control. Puerto Rico produces $126 billion a year ( 75th ranked in the world) and has a Per capita of $38,100 (29th in the world) using PPP GDP data from the World Bank, since you like that source so much. A lot of Latino Countries and 3rd world countries in the world would love to be in those shoes.


Puerto Rico has problems like any country in the world but compared to the rest of the Latin Republic problems. I say I rather have Puerto Rico's problems than theirs.you need to travel more


since you don't know much about Puerto Rican history, you keep yapping that it's the end of the world for Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico had a much worse economy in 1898 and during the Great Depression than what they have now and they always bounced back under worse circumstances. So your unfounded predictions means nothing to me.


Transfer cash payment in PR are in cash, half of population of PR in on welfare.
without the transfer of money from the fed the economy of PR would be the size of the Haitian one.
welfare in the #1 source of income in PR.
you need to travel more, any country in latam would be better, and that is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE GOES OR INVEST IN PR, even Americans prefer to visit Costa rica or Panama than to go to PR.
even if the flight ticket is half the price, no passport needed ect ect ect.

Even airlines are cancelling the PR route due to lack of passengers. I took Norwegian to PR once and they cancelled the WHOLE Route DUE TO LACK OF REVENUE.

you think that because a country has some poor people is worst in general term that another country with less poor people? thats a very idiotic logic.

you have to understand certain things, lest say Brazil or Chile has a 30% poverty rate, but the other 70% of the population is not poor and enjoy a quality of life 100 times better than the Puerto ricans, even if the whole country on average has a lower income.
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Old Yesterday, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Philly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
Transfer cash payment in PR are in cash, half of population of PR in on welfare.
without the transfer of money from the fed the economy of PR would be the size of the Haitian one.
welfare in the #1 source of income in PR.
you need to travel more, any country in latam would be better, and that is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE GOES OR INVEST IN PR, even Americans prefer to visit Costa rica or Panama than to go to PR.
even if the flight ticket is half the price, no passport needed ect ect ect.

Even airlines are cancelling the PR route due to lack of passengers. I took Norwegian to PR once and they cancelled the WHOLE Route DUE TO LACK OF REVENUE.

you think that because a country has some poor people is worst in general term that another country with less poor people? thats a very idiotic logic.

you have to understand certain things, lest say Brazil or Chile has a 30% poverty rate, but the other 70% of the population is not poor and enjoy a quality of life 100 times better than the Puerto ricans, even if the whole country on average has a lower income.
a) PR does a terrible job marketing itself but that has improved in recent years. it's still early but it appears that sju is posting growth over it's 16/17 numbers and aguadilla is setting passenger records (although it's a small airport). brazil has problems, lots of problems. corruption, violence, etc. that are actually worse than PR. I don't think it's a good example to use for your purposes. sorry, this is all very off topic relative to the jones act. that said, most people I know that prefer to visit, say, the DR is because it is cheaper.
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Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
 
111 posts, read 13,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
a) PR does a terrible job marketing itself but that has improved in recent years. it's still early but it appears that sju is posting growth over it's 16/17 numbers and aguadilla is setting passenger records (although it's a small airport). brazil has problems, lots of problems. corruption, violence, etc. that are actually worse than PR. I don't think it's a good example to use for your purposes. sorry, this is all very off topic relative to the jones act. that said, most people I know that prefer to visit, say, the DR is because it is cheaper.
DR has been growing consistently for the last decade or so, same with panama, and costa rica, all growing more than 5% a year. it is ironic that the small Latin american countries are doing better than the big ones.

I used Brazil because has the richest middle class in latam, but has a terrible distribution of wealth. but that middle class are a dozens of millions of people.
Is not very off-topic as the OP insisted into using latam as a example of why the Jones act is not that bad, comparing PR to countries that have absolutely nothing to do with the US and have a different economic dynamic, he tried to use than a "excuse" like at least we are "better than those" kind of logic, but the reality is a different story. the reason PR is not a hellhole like Haiti today is because keep using the USA as a pressure valve, exporting anyone without a job to the us mainland.
if lets say panama could do that would be in way better position than PR as Panama does has production and is a productive country. This is the issue with the OP argument. If we remove all transfers of payments and US aid of the Puerto rican economy it would be a laughable economy.

Another thing is this, being an US territory does not offer any advantage anymore as most countries in the vicinity have free trades with the US and can sell their products in the US without tax. the jones act does not allows PR to use its geographic location to develop a logistic hub for international commerce.

Last edited by Snapshoot; Yesterday at 04:54 PM..
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Old Yesterday, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Philly
9,860 posts, read 13,793,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
DR has been growing consistently for the last decade or so, same with panama, and costa rica, all growing more than 5% a year. it is ironic that the small Latin american countries are doing better than the big ones.

I used Brazil because has the richest middle class in latam, but has a terrible distribution of wealth. but that middle class are a dozens of millions of people.
Is not very off-topic as the OP insisted into using latam as a example of why the Jones act is not that bad, comparing PR to countries that have absolutely nothing to do with the US and have a different economic dynamic, he tried to use than a "excuse" like at least we are "better than those" kind of logic, but the reality is a different story. the reason PR is not a hellhole like Haiti today is because keep using the USA as a pressure valve, exporting anyone without a job to the us mainland.
if lets say panama could do that would be in way better position than PR as Panama does has production and is a productive country. This is the issue with the OP argument. If we remove all transfers of payments and US aid of the Puerto rican economy it would be a laughable economy.
there are no good arguments for the jones act which is why this discussion is so off topic. that said, the DR is cheaper because it is not part of the US and thus people have to be willing to accept less rather than move (or they can immigrate/migrate but much less simply).
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Old Yesterday, 10:06 PM
 
10,099 posts, read 3,412,534 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
Transfer cash payment in PR are in cash, half of population of PR in on welfare.
without the transfer of money from the fed the economy of PR would be the size of the Haitian one.
welfare in the #1 source of income in PR.
you need to travel more, any country in latam would be better, and that is evidenced by the fact that NO ONE GOES OR INVEST IN PR, even Americans prefer to visit Costa rica or Panama than to go to PR.
even if the flight ticket is half the price, no passport needed ect ect ect.

Even airlines are cancelling the PR route due to lack of passengers. I took Norwegian to PR once and they cancelled the WHOLE Route DUE TO LACK OF REVENUE.

you think that because a country has some poor people is worst in general term that another country with less poor people? thats a very idiotic logic.

you have to understand certain things, lest say Brazil or Chile has a 30% poverty rate, but the other 70% of the population is not poor and enjoy a quality of life 100 times better than the Puerto ricans, even if the whole country on average has a lower income.

1) LMAO!!! Without the U.S. Puerto Rico would be like Haiti? LOL...where do you get your facts? If Puerto Rico was a Republic it would be like Costa Rica's economy not Haiti.


2) Do you say No one goes to visit P.R. or invest in Puerto Rico anymore? where do you get so much nonsense? The leading industries in P.R. include pharmaceuticals, electronics, textiles, petrochemicals, processed foods, clothing, and textiles. Followed by the service industry: finance, insurance, real estate, and tourism. To say nobody invests in P.R. anymore it's like you say things for just saying it and you talk about idiotic logic? LOL





3) You say Brazil has a better quality of life 100% better than Puerto Rico? that's it, you went from being funny to just silly. I have traveled to Brazil many times. Puerto Rico has problems but nowhere near like Brazil has and many Latin Countries. Are you measuring Puerto Rico to the U.S. standards or the standards of Latin Republics? is not the same thing. The U.S. Middle Class is not the same as the Middle Class in Brazil or Costa Rica. You can't have it both ways to make your arguments and comparisons.



4) You say Puerto Rico out of the 50 states is the poorest in your arguments to say it's over for Puerto Rico but praise Brazil, Chile, and Costa Rica when they are poorer in comparison to the 50 states.



5) If the standard and benchmark is the U.S. then everybody including Puerto Rico are behind. If you compare P.R. which is a tiny island of 130 x 35 miles of very limited resources to Latin Countries of much bigger proportions and much more natural resources than Puerto Rico, then Puerto Rico holds its own against them in the quality of life and household income and access to the biggest economy market in the world which is the U.S.A. Being a U.S. Territory has its advantages.
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Old Today, 05:46 AM
 
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the main issue with PR was the collapse of the farmaseuticals industry, they are gone.

foreign investment on PR is close to zero.

the only adventage that PR could exploit is it geographic location in the middle of the altlantic, PR could develop as a logistic center, but the Jones act does not allow that to happen.

PR cant compete with more developed tourist destinations like cancun or Punta Cana as those places will always be cheaper and have thousands of hotels rooms already built, it would take decades to PR to catch up. the the current crime levels are just too hight for tourist to feel safe. Even now, with a murder rate of 20 per 100,000, Puerto Rico’s murder rate is four times that of the mainland United States, two times that of DR and Costa Rica.

If you remove the federal aid to PR and the billions of dollars in welfare and leave PR standing in its own local production the economy of PR would be 20% of what is today maybe less.
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Old Today, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Philly
9,860 posts, read 13,793,749 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshoot View Post
the main issue with PR was the collapse of the farmaseuticals industry, they are gone.

foreign investment on PR is close to zero.

the only adventage that PR could exploit is it geographic location in the middle of the altlantic, PR could develop as a logistic center, but the Jones act does not allow that to happen.

PR cant compete with more developed tourist destinations like cancun or Punta Cana as those places will always be cheaper and have thousands of hotels rooms already built, it would take decades to PR to catch up. the the current crime levels are just too hight for tourist to feel safe. Even now, with a murder rate of 20 per 100,000, Puerto Rico’s murder rate is four times that of the mainland United States, two times that of DR and Costa Rica.

If you remove the federal aid to PR and the billions of dollars in welfare and leave PR standing in its own local production the economy of PR would be 20% of what is today maybe less.
overly negative IMO. crime is one of those things that improves incrementally. setting aside the jones act, the primary problem in PR is the political class. it's inability to spending wisely and pass structural reform hold the island back. there is little investment because the island has high taxes and high regulations while at the same time offers few services. the competitive advantage is being in the carribean but also being part of the US if you offer the same sort of stability you can usually expect stateside. I have friends with personal experience in the DR medical system and so long as PR offers better healthcare than the DR, it will attract more people looking to live there even if it is retirees. tourism has recovered from maria which leaves the island at a critical juncture, address the issues controlled by the island government (really, you can't book a ferry to vieques in advance online?). excessive sprawl, corruption, bureaucracy, inefficiency while also pushing to change things not controlled, like the jones act. there are a lot of things that can help boost the island's economic output which is required to drive down the debt as a % of GDP.
FWIW, cancun also struggles with crime and corruption. historically so has punta cana as people were warned not to go off resort though that has moderated in recent years.

https://realestate.usnews.com/places...san-juan/crime
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