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Old 01-17-2010, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Pennsylvania
1,659 posts, read 2,771,728 times
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Wow, this post is pretty ignorant. You gotta read up on this subject before jumping in.
The French were psychotically brutal to them and that sparked the rebellion. The didn't "pull out" they were KICKED out. To add insult to injury and demanded Haiti pay a crippling "debt" to them that they just finished paying in the last century. How would they generate wealth when the productivity of the following hundred years was being demanded of them to get those thugs out of their faces? It's like telling a man who's been brutally mugged to get up from his hospital bed, go out, and work for twenty years to pay his mugger more, then MARVELLING that his work hasn't produced more! No one patched them up as Germany was patched up after the wars. But still they paid and survived as the world looked away.

The US did a LOT more damage than you've (under)stated. The US exploited then propped up dictator after dictator while they brutalized and looted and generally destroyed any chance for the majority who opposed them to simply peacefully exist. There is a limit to what ANY people can do in the midst of generations of undermining. This and other countries in Central America and South America (Nicaragua/Chile anyone?) suffered under the same treatment. If that isn't "setting a country up for failure" I don't know what is.
It would just take too much time to address the rest of your secondhand subjective incorrect post. I'll leave that for another day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post

Haitians have always been plagued with living among euro-centric neighbors. They got boycotted by the French after the latter left. Their language and the bourgeoisie's insistence on French cultural influence in Haiti marginalized them economically in a Spanish Caribbean and later an American Caribbean. The US didn't do them any favors during the early 20th century. And to beat that dead horse, they're still black among euro-centric neighbors. There's Haiti in a nutshell. But blaming France in 2010 ain't gonna get them out of their sub-Saharan African existence.

America's racial attitudes towards Haiti will not all of a sudden change overnight because of this disaster. Politically they [Haiti] have taken center stage once again, but I doubt a lasting political immigration policy will be put in place as a result.

Haitians need to stop blaming their white neighbors. This ain't 1804 anymore. The global economy has everybody running for the exits, Haiti is just so behind the race they're irrelevant. Which is why you witness that kind of misery in the year 2010. Their own mulatto and pre-revolution free black families have pillaged and allow outsiders to pillage that country for 200 years, and they got nobody but themselves to blame for this outcome. Is is their fault they're black in a euro-centric Western world? No. Is this reality going to change though? Of course not! So they need to get off the "white world set me up for failure" and seek a change in approach, 'cause self-governance didn't pan out so well for the Haitians. People cry and scream bloody murder when the suggestion is made that a "white nation" should intervene (as they have in the past, many times with no long-term improvement for the local populace) and help Haiti become productive, but the reality is that the "black but free... but starving" approach is not doing jack for them. This is one case where giving up that French insistence in education for socially and economically viable Spanish and North American language and cultural constructs would help them get more traction with the rest of their white and "white-desiring" neighbors.

They can have their creole and french folkloric influence, but brother get on the 21st century bandwagon and start embracing western relevant language education, western expatriate business to bring in jobs, and truly give the haitian people an avenue to emigrate with adequate tools, which could in turn benefit the mother land. Unfortunately this change is not going to happen in my opinion. Is that because of France and the US? Heck no, it is because of the haitian elite. So there's your enemy. You can't do anything about being born black, but you can do something about recognizing that he who has his foot pressing down on your neck happens to share your skin color, counter intuitive as it may be for Haitians or even white-guilt-ridden folks outside Haiti to internalize.


As to the immigration piece, PR has always had a Haitian community of illegal immigrants, via the Dominican Republic. Same racial stratas exist in PR. Ricans consider Dominicans second class caribbean folk due to their larger percentage of black and mulato skin, and Dominicans do the same on Haitians, due to their almost exclusive african black skin composition. The trek from Haiti to PR is a long one, and the Bahamian Atlantic ain't exactly peaceful beaches and coral reefs all the way to Florida either, so the immigration rate will not increase dramatically. So in short I say to the OP, no, you will not see any dramatic increase in haitian immigration to PR outside of the normal enclave of Haitians already in the island.
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Old 01-17-2010, 02:45 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ticatica View Post
Wow, this post is pretty ignorant. You gotta read up on this subject before jumping in.
The French were psychotically brutal to them and that sparked the rebellion. The didn't "pull out" they were KICKED out. To add insult to injury and demanded Haiti pay a crippling "debt" to them that they just finished paying in the last century. How would they generate wealth when the productivity of the following hundred years was being demanded of them to get those thugs out of their faces? It's like telling a man who's been brutally mugged to get up from his hospital bed, go out, and work for twenty years to pay his mugger more, then MARVELLING that his work hasn't produced more! No one patched them up as Germany was patched up after the wars. But still they paid and survived as the world looked away.

The US did a LOT more damage than you've (under)stated. The US exploited then propped up dictator after dictator while they brutalized and looted and generally destroyed any chance for the majority who opposed them to simply peacefully exist. There is a limit to what ANY people can do in the midst of generations of undermining. This and other countries in Central America and South America (Nicaragua/Chile anyone?) suffered under the same treatment. If that isn't "setting a country up for failure" I don't know what is.
It would just take too much time to address the rest of your secondhand subjective incorrect post. I'll leave that for another day.
I knew about the rebellion where the colonists got kicked out. I knew about Papa Doc and Baby Doc. I didn't know the USA was propping up the dictator, nor did I know that Haiti was forced to pay a debt to France that I don't see Haiti really owing to France. It was the colonists who came from France that went down to France, killed of the Native American population, then brought slaves down there and brutalized them. Of course there is going to be a rebellion.
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:23 PM
 
92,688 posts, read 122,997,895 times
Reputation: 18208
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I knew about the rebellion where the colonists got kicked out. I knew about Papa Doc and Baby Doc. I didn't know the USA was propping up the dictator, nor did I know that Haiti was forced to pay a debt to France that I don't see Haiti really owing to France. It was the colonists who came from France that went down to France, killed of the Native American population, then brought slaves down there and brutalized them. Of course there is going to be a rebellion.
If you only knew and Haiti isn't alone in this. Look at governments in Cuba, Iran(the shah) and others.

I remember Randall Robinson talking how Haiti is still pay the price for rebelling against the French and other things that have occurred in Haiti.
Randall Robinson on "An Unbroken Agony: Haiti, From Revolution to the Kidnapping of a President"
Randall Robinson on Haiti's Tortured Past, Troubling Present - washingtonpost.com
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Old 01-17-2010, 03:40 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckhthankgod View Post
If you only knew and Haiti isn't alone in this. Look at governments in Cuba, Iran(the shah) and others.

I remember Randall Robinson talking how Haiti is still pay the price for rebelling against the French and other things that have occurred in Haiti.
Randall Robinson on "An Unbroken Agony: Haiti, From Revolution to the Kidnapping of a President"
Randall Robinson on Haiti's Tortured Past, Troubling Present - washingtonpost.com
Jean-Bertrand Aristide was democratically elected, then a coup d'etat was set against him, and backed by the USA. This sounds like what happened in Chile in 1973(on the same day as 9-11 oddly enough). There was a democratically elected president and then Nixon went to Chile to have him ousted. This shows how much I didn't know. Jean-Bertrand Aristide was democratically elected, then kidnapped. Who knows how far Haiti could have gone if Aristide was never kicked out of office? He was represented the common man in Haiti, not the few 150 wealthy families in Haiti.
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Old 01-17-2010, 04:58 PM
 
Location: St Paul, MN - NJ's Gold Coast
5,251 posts, read 13,783,653 times
Reputation: 3167
Haiti is in ruins right now
They're probably going to scatter all over (Puerto Rico, FL, NYC/NNJ, but mainly to the Dominican Republic)
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:46 PM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPerone201 View Post
Haiti is in ruins right now
They're probably going to scatter all over (Puerto Rico, FL, NYC/NNJ, but mainly to the Dominican Republic)
Scattering through those areas, likely so. When I think about the Dominican Republic and its relationship with Haiti, I think about how former dictator Trujillo massacred 20,000-30,000 Haitians living in the Dominican Republic along the Haitian border.
To say Haiti is in ruins is an understatement. The closest thing I could think of when I thought about the destruction(in modern times anyway) was Katrina. When I heard about the earthquake, I thought about some of my friends who are from Haiti and have relatives in Haiti.
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:54 AM
 
1,530 posts, read 3,783,692 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
I have donated and I am praying. If Haitians come to the USA, they come. Many other immigrants come hear. Why not Haitians?
Go check out Miami.

A bit off topic, but they end up in a lot of low level medical positions. I know of a least one quadrapalegic that died because of their incompetence. Failed to turn the patient over at perscribed intervals. Lead to bedsores, which led to death.

Oddly, in areas of Palm Beach County, African Americans seem to be at odds with Haitians. Seems to revolve around "Haitians taking the jobs" or the like.

Same old immigration arguments that have been occurring since immigration began to be seen as having an impact on job markets.

Maybe a more germaine question is, "Why the U.S.? Why not somewhere in Africa, the mid-east, or anywhere else?"

The world seems to make sport out of hating U.S. and bashing the white element of the U.S. Funny, who's gone in first and the most?

Yeah, that's right, evil racist, cultureless, white majority America.

Heck, we even sent out first black president, Bill Clinton down there to help out.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:50 AM
 
72,874 posts, read 62,362,868 times
Reputation: 21825
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMadison View Post
Go check out Miami.

A bit off topic, but they end up in a lot of low level medical positions. I know of a least one quadrapalegic that died because of their incompetence. Failed to turn the patient over at perscribed intervals. Lead to bedsores, which led to death.

Oddly, in areas of Palm Beach County, African Americans seem to be at odds with Haitians. Seems to revolve around "Haitians taking the jobs" or the like.

Same old immigration arguments that have been occurring since immigration began to be seen as having an impact on job markets.

Maybe a more germaine question is, "Why the U.S.? Why not somewhere in Africa, the mid-east, or anywhere else?"

The world seems to make sport out of hating U.S. and bashing the white element of the U.S. Funny, who's gone in first and the most?

Yeah, that's right, evil racist, cultureless, white majority America.

Heck, we even sent out first black president, Bill Clinton down there to help out.
This is not the time or place for that stupid rhetoric.
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:53 AM
 
1,530 posts, read 3,783,692 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
This is not the time or place for that stupid rhetoric.
Well let's see here.

I guess at least (1) and most of (2) apply.

Since the person who died was in my family, I fail to see as where I'm speaking from anything but experience.

From Miraim-Webster:

Main Entry: rhet·o·ric
Pronunciation: \ˈre-tə-rik\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English rethorik, from Anglo-French rethorique, from Latin rhetorica, from Greek rhētorikē, literally, art of oratory, from feminine of rhētorikos of an orator, from rhētōr orator, rhetorician, from eirein to say, speak — more at word
Date: 14th century
1 : the art of speaking or writing effectively: as a : the study of principles and rules of composition formulated by critics of ancient times b : the study of writing or speaking as a means of communication or persuasion
2 a : skill in the effective use of speech b : a type or mode of language or speech; also : insincere or grandiloquent language
3 : verbal communication : discourse
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: United States
47 posts, read 167,518 times
Reputation: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Beer View Post
I've been lucky enough to know several Haitians...two of which are on my facebook, they are Haitian-Americans with tons of family in Haiti.

Some of the nicest people a person could ever hope to meet. One's from Miami and the other is from NY. (I met both of them abroad).

No doubt after this, there will be more Haitians coming into America. But there already are quite a few Haitians in America now, and they've settled and adjusted just fine. They're good people.
Yeah... I had classmates whose parents are hatian, and they also were nice people. They knew like 4 languages. English french spanish creole.

If Haitians get on a boat and come to Florida, do they get a free green card?

I know that Cubans get a green card for free + federal food stamps + federal housing when they touch U.S. Soil...
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