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Thank you Ariadne22 for your information regarding witnesses for the employer. My question is... when I file my appeal (and I will), is this worth mentioning?
This is your first post.
Who are you?
Where did I mention witnesses?
Are you the OP now using a different screen name?
If you are the OP, it's been three months since you've posted last. Case is closed as far as SC is concerned - and no way will SC be allowing an appeal at this late date.
Can you provide the details for the timeline of events. We don't need personal commentary at this time, just on XXX date I did this. On XXY date my boss did this, on XXZ date .... etc...
Also what was the reason you told unemployment for no longer working?
What is your employer alleging?
What did the unemployment notice of your employer's appeals state?
On 12/9/14, I gave two weeks notice. On 12/17/14, my boss called the office and told me to leave immediately. No mention of insubordination, not even when explaining her reason for appealing, until phone hearing on 5/20/15.
I told unemployment I gave notice because my hours and pay were cut by approximately 50%. Then, I was fired during my notice time.
My boss is alleging I was insubordinate on my last day of work because I didn't train the new girl but she didn't say I outright refused (because I didn't).
The unemployment notice stated that they were trying to determine whether I quit for good cause or was fired due to misconduct.
I apologize for late response since you answered so quickly but I just received an email that there had been a reply??? I have now bookmarked this page.
If you are the OP, it's been three months since you've posted last. Case is closed as far as SC is concerned - and no way will SC be allowing an appeal at this late date.
Sorry, I am new to this board (but not to a computer). I had requested to start a new thread, not respond to an old post.
This is a Florida case, not SC. Not sure how it got on this thread.
Still need more info. A 50% cut to your pay RATE can be good cause to quit, but a 50% cut to your hours many not be. So be more specific.
On 12/9 when you submitted your resignation, was the reduction in effect and for how long?
Do you have proof of what you had vs proof of what you were getting?
Were you awarded benefits in the beginning? If so, did you get a letter telling you WHY you were eligible.
Is this because of your appeal or is the employer appealing?
Seriously, you have a touchy case here, and your two or three sentences is what you think you need answered to win. That's hardly enough.
Also, don't be afraid of the word "insubordination." If you weren't hired to train people, then if you did refuse to train the new person, so what? You weren't being paid to perform that task, you don't have to do higher value work for free, and you have every right to say "no, you train her."
However, you got to figure out what is happening to you or you'll be going in two different directions at your hearing, probably do a poor job, and then get denied because you didn't say all that needed to be said or failed to bring easy proof of the things you wanted to point out.
If you already had a phone hearing on 5/20, what was the decision on that. Waiting to go to the next level now, is a little late.
Still need more info. A 50% cut to your pay RATE can be good cause to quit, but a 50% cut to your hours many not be. So be more specific. "I understand your point regarding my pay rate being cut. However, taking into account my benefits is important because that had a huge impact on my salary. In any event, I ended up getting fired so the employer was the moving party."
On 12/9 when you submitted your resignation, was the reduction in effect and for how long? "It had been in effect since November 24, 2014."
Do you have proof of what you had vs proof of what you were getting? "This does not matter at this point as this was not in dispute."
Were you awarded benefits in the beginning? If so, did you get a letter telling you WHY you were eligible. "Yes, I was awarded benefits because the employer failed to respond."
Is this because of your appeal or is the employer appealing? "Employer, of course "
Seriously, you have a touchy case here, and your two or three sentences is what you think you need answered to win. That's hardly enough. "That is not what I think I need answered to win, just wondered if it would be relevant."
Also, don't be afraid of the word "insubordination." If you weren't hired to train people, then if you did refuse to train the new person, so what? You weren't being paid to perform that task, you don't have to do higher value work for free, and you have every right to say "no, you train her." "This is an excellent point and I appreciate it very much! Also, I did state that I did not refuse to train her and that I was in the midst of doing it but the boss kept calling to check if it had been done (she admitted she called like every hour on the hour)."
However, you got to figure out what is happening to you or you'll be going in two different directions at your hearing, probably do a poor job, and then get denied because you didn't say all that needed to be said or failed to bring easy proof of the things you wanted to point out. "I already had the hearing; I got a CD copy of the hearing and listened to it today with a friend. I covered all my bases, exposed lies she had told (through irrefutable proof AND her own testimony) and my friend was even like wtf? She said the hearing officer's decision did not take any of my evidence into account and it seemed like I wasn't even a participant in the hearing." (Also, my friend had the grand idea to google the hearing officer and we came across another case she had heard and her decision was reversed (she clearly made a HUGE error in that one).
If you already had a phone hearing on 5/20, what was the decision on that. Waiting to go to the next level now, is a little lat
"Not sure what you mean by a little late... One of my first posts was that I wish I had found this board sooner. I am not sure if you saw that. Believe me I did TONS of research and went to my local law library before the hearing."
The hearing officer found for the employer and I am appealing to the Commission. I have read some of their opinions and they seem very level headed and fair and very employee leaning. I could go on and on and on (believe me!) but one example I will give is that my former boss testified that a co-worker (who was not even an employee of the company) complained for over a year about how they could not get along with me. Then, when this "co-worker" testified they stated we had gotten along just great for 1 1/2 years before we got into a verbal altercation shortly before I quit and got fired (ha ha).
Please feel free to ask more questions. I would have given more info to start but there's just so much to it (my employer submitted 43 pages of mostly crap!)
Thank you thank you thank you. I am preparing my brief to submit by Monday.
Since you're going to the board, the record has been established. Start by typing in the "findings of fact," and the "reasoning and conclusions of law."
Just so you know, pointing out lies doesn't always mean anything. If the judge concluded that you quit without good cause, it would be irrevelant whether you got along with your coworker or not.
So you know, I wrote an appeal for the board of review for myself three times, and got relief from two of them. Not the big win of a reversal, but in one I got a new hearing, and in the second my quit was turned into a discharge/refusal of work, and then remanded for a refusal of work determination which I nailed and got benefits.
Since you're going to the board, the record has been established. Start by typing in the "findings of fact," and the "reasoning and conclusions of law." FYI: All spelling and grammar errors are intentional as this is the way it is typed by the hearing officer.
FINDINGS OF FACT: The claimant began working for the employer, XXX, in July 2012 as a full time branch administrator. The claimant received many warnings from the employer throughout her employment. The employer repeatedly spoke to the claimant about completing her tasks in the appropriate order, because she didn't consistently complete them in as timely manner. Whenever the employer or other co-workers critique the claimant she became defensive and was rude to them in response. In October 2014, the employer brought in another employee to help the claimant with her workload. On 10/28/14, the claimant started a verbal altercation with the co-worker after they disagreed on how a task should be completed. The claimant's co-worker refused to work with her, because of the hostility she felt from the claimant. The employer made the claimant a part time employee so she wouldn't work in the office at the same time. The claimant felt as though she was being harassed so on 12/9/14 she resigned and gave 2 weeks' notice. On 12/17/14, the employer asked the claimant to train her co-worker. she asked her to show her co-worker how to complete a specific task. The employer called her multiple times throughout the day to see if she has trained her co-worker. By the end of the day, the claimant still had not trained her co-worker after the employer repeatedly asked her to do it that day. The employer discharged the claimant she was being let so since she refused to follow her directions." (I plan on pointing out quite a few flaws in this statement)
CONCLUSIONS OF LAW:
In the instant case the employer presented the necessary evidence to establish that the claimant was discharged for misconduct connected to work. The main reason the employer discharged the claimant was because she was insubordinate. Throughout her employment the employer had to repeatedly tell the claimant how she wanted things done. The claimant was also insubordinate during the last week of her employment when she refused to train her coworker before the end of that day. The claimant said she didn't have time to show her co-worker how to complete the task because they were working on another project. However, the claimant should have stopped working on that task and trained her co-worker. The employer called her throughout the day and asked about it, because it was clearly important to her. The claimant continued insubordination amounted to misconduct. She also committed misconduct when she was rude to her co-workers after they critique her, and when she started the verbal altercation with her co-worker. The claimant's actions were a deliberate disregard of the employer's interest, and reasonable standards of behavior which the employer expected of her. Therefore, the claimant is disqualified from receiving benefits for committing misconduct connected with work and the employer's account will not be charged. (This doesn't sound like conclusions of law to me but rather another way to say what was under findings of fact- what do you think? I am going to research the definitions of both but this was my first reaction)
Just so you know, pointing out lies doesn't always mean anything. If the judge concluded that you quit without good cause, it would be irrevelant whether you got along with your coworker or not. "The judge did not conclude I quit without good cause. The issue was whether or not I was fired for misconduct- in this case my employer chirped insubordination about 20 times during the hearing."
So you know, I wrote an appeal for the board of review for myself three times, and got relief from two of them. Not the big win of a reversal, but in one I got a new hearing, and in the second my quit was turned into a discharge/refusal of work, and then remanded for a refusal of work determination which I nailed and got benefits. "That's good work which is why I respect your advice and knowledge."
I need to know WHY you aren't getting benefits. "I am not getting benefits because my employer decided to use the insubordination angle once she saw I was awarded benefits. However, none of the documents (except one when I first started working 2 1/2 years prior) say ANYTHING about insubordination. She basically threw a bunch of stuff against the walls to see what would stick. She argued that I was not able to get along with co-workers (yet acknowledged I was pleasant to employees and staff), that I deleted company files but did not give specifics (because she is full of crap) and that I was insubordinate (though the only true example was my refusal to train the new girl- which is untrue and not in my job description anyhow). She also contradicted her witness when giving testimony and she was very vague in her responses (because she was making the stuff up)."
I realize the above was my take on things but just trying to convey what happened
Also, I found this case interesting if you care to look (or anyone else wants to look)... search raac 14-05587. Same hearing officer I had and I think she was clearly wrong in her decision (Aramark is the employer). Accordingly, it was reversed.
You were fired, and your quit had nothing to do with why you aren't working there.
I get the idea that a lot of things happened in the PAST. If they are sufficiently in the past, then to not have fired you back then is tantamount to employer condonation, and it can't be used against you now.
The LAST thing you did was be insubordinate, and again, you were NOT hired as a trainer, I'll go so far as to say you NEVER trained, and it would be unsuitable work for you to train, and your employer can't make you do it and she wasn't paying you the proper salary to do the higher level of work. Now, it's up to you. If you want to say that you didn't refuse to train, you can go that route, I can't stop you. However, in the world of UI, the person that says, "that's not my job," is the one that gets UI. Most would label that person as NOT a team player and give them horrible references, but that's the way it is.
I think they are exclusive. You can't say you would train and then try to say that training is unsuitable and a task for which you weren't getting paid. You can research FL for this concept.
My state even has this in the regs:
Some examples of insubordination are:
a. Refusal to follow reasonable and proper instructions;
b. Insolence in actions or language, profanity, or threats toward a supervisor without due provocation;
or
c. Refusal to accept assignment to suitable work.
I read that case. I'm not so sure it's indicative of something that helps you. The judge in that case awarded benefits. If the board is inclined to deny, then they tear the decision to shreds. In your case, you were denied, they may be inclined to rubberstamp. It happens.
You just need to make sure that your logic is spot on. You really can't deviate from the findings of fact because that is the ALJ's job, but you can reinterpret them or find things that support the concepts I've outlined.
Another but riskier position that you might be able to dovetail on to the end as your last ditch appoach is that you can't be fired after you've quit, and then you can try to get a new hearing to get a good cause quit out of it.
Yes, I quit and then she got annoyed one day and fired me. Then, she wished she hadn't so she created a story alleging insubordination (5 months after I left employment there) but had NO documentation proving it. She just kept saying the word over and over.
The reason I brought up the case I referenced is to show the incompetency of the hearing officer I had. In that case, she clearly stated case law that, to me, did NOTHING to support her finding in favor of the claimant. To me, the hearing officer should have found in favor of the employer the whole time. Not only did they employee not bother to call (alleging he didn't have a phone- but these days?? really? you couldn't find someone else who did?) but when he did have a phone on the THIRD day, he did not call. My point is that they reversed her decision because it made no sense. To me and to another party who listened to the two hour ordeal with me, she couldn't make sense of it either.
The hearing officer did not introduce all of the documents that were discussed either. My former employer sent 43 pages, we talked about maybe 20 of them, she introduced about 10. Is that fair? Can I still speak about the documents if they are not in evidence but were referred to during the hearing?
Also, the hearing officer let a witness testify as to MY state of mind when my employer questioned her. And the hearing officer allowed the employer to give testimony right after she cross examined me (I gave my answer to her question and then she stated what she thought the answer was)
I never stated during my hearing that I wasn't hired to train nor paid extra to train. How can I turn it into that now??
Basically, all of these warnings (I think she said 7) were not even (legitimate) warnings. At one point, she presented a warning (it was a yearly evaluation) and testified "I wrote her up to give her a raise". Wtf??? Another she called a performance plan, and stated it was not a warning even though she was supposed to be presenting all of the warning I got.
Also, she had so many inconsistencies in her testimony. I proved with FACT and her own testimony that the first warning included something factually inaccurate. So how could any reasonable person believe her? Also, her testimony regarding what someone else told her (hearsay) was refuted by the person who allegedly told her that!
I told you I could go on and on. I really feel as if the hearing officer ignored EVERYTHING I said, which I think shows clearly above. Where is the mention of how I discredited one of her warnings??
Yes, I quit and then she got annoyed one day and fired me. Then, she wished she hadn't so she created a story alleging insubordination (5 months after I left employment there) but had NO documentation proving it. She just kept saying the word over and over..
It can be a made up story, but it was believed. It's in the findings of fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewelPRG
The hearing officer did not introduce all of the documents that were discussed either. My former employer sent 43 pages, we talked about maybe 20 of them, she introduced about 10. Is that fair? Can I still speak about the documents if they are not in evidence but were referred to during the hearing?.
May not matter. You were denied benefits because you didn't train the person and you didn't drop everything to get right on it. That's what you have to change. Did the 43 pages cover what happened that day of the training?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewelPRG
Also, the hearing officer let a witness testify as to MY state of mind when my employer questioned her. And the hearing officer allowed the employer to give testimony right after she cross examined me (I gave my answer to her question and then she stated what she thought the answer was).
You could have objected, but you didn't, so it's unlikely to help now. Again, you were denied because you didn't train the person. If the testimony was about your attitude in the past, it didn't hurt you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewelPRG
I never stated during my hearing that I wasn't hired to train nor paid extra to train. How can I turn it into that now??.
You just say it in your appeal. It's a concept. It can't be insubordination if the work was unsuitable. These ALJs are supposed to know to delve into this. The extreme example is when someone gets demoted to clean toilets. Do you honestly think you'd have to point that out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewelPRG
Basically, all of these warnings (I think she said 7) were not even (legitimate) warnings. At one point, she presented a warning (it was a yearly evaluation) and testified "I wrote her up to give her a raise". Wtf??? Another she called a performance plan, and stated it was not a warning even though she was supposed to be presenting all of the warning I got..
It's not the warnings, it's just what you did, that day that got you denied, so you don't have to rehash the whole hearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewelPRG
Also, she had so many inconsistencies in her testimony. I proved with FACT and her own testimony that the first warning included something factually inaccurate. So how could any reasonable person believe her? Also, her testimony regarding what someone else told her (hearsay) was refuted by the person who allegedly told her that!.
The ALJ is the one that gets to determine who is more credible. You just have to accept it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JewelPRG
I told you I could go on and on. I really feel as if the hearing officer ignored EVERYTHING I said, which I think shows clearly above. Where is the mention of how I discredited one of her warnings??.
You can't go on and on. You have about 1 page to write, and you have to put the most important stuff first because if they get tired of reading it, they'll just stop.
That's why you focus on WHY you were denied and change that. I had my hours cut and full-time benefits taken away. I quit because it was a change to the employment arrangement I was denied. I could have attacked the things like they referred to my job as a data entry operator or that a reasonable worker wouldn't quit a $280/wk job to get $240 on UI. I didn't. I simply pointed out that health insurance isn't free, it was taken away, if that's "substantial," then I was fired, and I never got my "refusal of work" test. I wrote my appeal all from what was in the decision, not from the transcript. I didn't need to.
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