What do you think happens once we die? (activity)

[Sculptor]

As an animist pagan my view is that since energy can't be destroyed it can only change form, and all living creatures exist due to energy- both chemical and electrical, it is called the "Life force" or "spirit" and after physical death the "life force" continues on in another form, we don't have any way of knowing what form that is.
The epitaph for my late dog in my virtual world says it pretty well;

[tofur]

Originally Posted by JerZ

TVC, the study you reference above does indicate awareness after the heart stops beating - but how does that mean life after death?

It means the brain itself - a physical organ of the physical world - is still aware. Which means...not actually dead, right? That would mean we need to redefine what physical death is, but I don't see how it means life after death or even consciousness after death. If your brain is working (i.e.) aware - it's not actually dead yet!

I.e. this statement:



In other words...the brain was being stimulated via sound.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the azz, I swear. And I'm not being a naysayer. I'd love to believe in life/a conscious existence after death. I've always wanted to believe that. But to me, this is actually a concrete confirmation of what I've always felt: that the brain can somehow keep working temporarily after a stopped heartbeat, and therefore, NDEs where people say they were aware of things going on in the room were the effect of a still-alive brain - a physical, pragmatic thing, not something otherwordly. This may quite clearly show that we may need to redefine death; we have always assumed that once the heart stops beating, there can't possibly be actual, brain-generated consciousness. But obviously there can.

That still doesn't mean there's no such thing as life and/or consciousness after death...it just means that IMO, this study actually cements the idea (that so many seem to pooh-pooh) that NDEs are firings in the brain, not otherworldy experiences. Unfortunately, this may actually be the direct opposite of what life-after-death believers want in a study.

As for this part that you said:



Actually, none of this study negates what the person you're referencing believes (if that's what he believes). This study, in fact, is showing the opposite of the brain being inactive. The brain is obviously still active. Unless I'm misunderstanding?

You are going to have to explain how people are having coherent, hyper-realistic conscious experiences that produce rock solid memories that can be accurately recalled decades later (yes, someone did a long term study on nde memories, no I don't remember who/where I read it), all while their brain is severely impaired. If consciousness originates from and is dependent on the brain to exist, then these people should be experiencing the complete frekkin' opposite of coherent, stable, hyper-real... The dying/dead brain activity looks nothing like healthy waking life activity, it should not produce NDE-like experiences.

We are familiar with the hallucinations that come with the brain being brought back online (like say, after a coma), they are nothing like the NDE. They are incoherent, random, ridiculous...

[tofur]

Originally Posted by TVC15

Thank you but I am very versed in Lucid Dreaming. I have been fascinated by it for over 25 years and have achieved full induced Lucidity in my own dream.

I also am not convinced that consciousness originates solely from the brain or if it ever originated in the brain.

I also see the value of studying the brain patterns of subjects that are Lucid Dreaming but in those experiments the brain is very active.

The Lucidity Institute has a lot of great information on this topic. Psychophysiology of Lucid Dreaming

However I think the argument from the main naysayer is that there is no consciousness or awareness that leaves the human body upon death when the brain is inactive or dead.

The recent studies published by Dr. Parnia have suggested otherwise.

haha same here man, I've got over 100 lucids under my belt so far. Very interesting experience to say the least. I'm now not so sure that waking life isn't a dream of some sort, in the sense of being no more inherently real then the dream world. It feels exactly the same, it really is the same inherent experience for me (of course you can't fly or walk through walls in waking life, lol!)

[TVC15]

Originally Posted by tofur

haha same here man, I've got over 100 lucids under my belt so far. Very interesting experience to say the least. I'm now not so sure that waking life isn't a dream of some sort, in the sense of being no more inherently real then the dream world. It feels exactly the same, it really is the same inherent experience for me (of course you can't fly or walk through walls in waking life, lol!)

Man O Man I am so envious of the 100 under your belt. I tried for years to become Lucid after learning about it...I was the perfect candidate since my dream world is very very active and not like anyone else that I have ever met other than my mom and brother.

I did it all. Nova Dreamer...writing down the dreams. Reality checks. Nothing happened.

So I just gave up after 7 years...yes I was determined. Then out of no where I just spontaneously realized that I was in a Dream but instantly lost the Lucidity due to my over excitement.

Fast forward another 7 years after that Dream and I methodically induced a Lucid Dream and while I was standing there telling myself to remain calm...the scenery began to change and the freaking alarm clock went off...Lucid Dream over I carried the residue of the good energy that I felt in that Dream with me for the next 3 days. I am so envious of anyone who can just snap their Dream into a Lucid one. Lucky YOU!

I am waiting for the new Nova Dreamer 2 to be released.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by tofur

haha same here man, I've got over 100 lucids under my belt so far. Very interesting experience to say the least. I'm now not so sure that waking life isn't a dream of some sort, in the sense of being no more inherently real then the dream world. It feels exactly the same, it really is the same inherent experience for me (of course you can't fly or walk through walls in waking life, lol!)

I've had lucid dreams for years. I never try to make them happen or anything like that. They just happen. I had been having them for a number of years before it occurred to me to look them up on the internet. I must have Googled something like "I realize I'm dreaming"...something like that. Then I learned the term lucid dreaming.

They come in clusters. I might have one a night for three or four days, then nothing for a few months.

I LOVE lucid dreaming when it happens. I almost always fly or float once I realize I'm dreaming. Not sure why, but flying, floating, leaping, etc. seems to be my "thing." Maybe it has some connection to a feeling of being free or something.

One time I varied it. I was on a diet (in my waking life, obviously) and I had a lucid dream and immediately "made" a huge banquet table appear. I ate everything I wanted because I knew I wouldn't gain weight, LOL.

I don't know why but as much as fun as lucid dreams are, I just never feel the need to make them happen - I like them to surprise me, I guess, not sure.

I don't ever feel that they're more real than the real world, though. That's just not a sense that I personally get.

[TVC15]

Originally Posted by JerZ

I've had lucid dreams for years.

I don't ever feel that they're more real than the real world, though. That's just not a sense that I personally get.

Cool!

The measly 2 that I had felt more real than waking life.

I think I have trouble inducing them because I am always analyzing the situation in my dreams as they are happening. I have such wild dreams that are very vivid and I am all over the planet and in places that I have never seen around people I have never met. I have meet 100's of people that I have never seen in my life in my dreams. I also dream of being in different time eras. My dreams seem very real...I think that is why I have trouble inducing Lucidity. The one time I was able to induce it...I think it was due to the dream being very bizarre and scary...it was a very real but unreal setting.

[Sculptor]

"Further the resuscitation process FLOODS the body and brain with electrical activity. That is what defibrillation is, you would do well to look it up and learn about it. The brain when you are being revived by this process is being flooded with all kinds of random electricity. Is it therefore any wonder that the brain experiences all kinds of weird and wonderful imagery during this experience and struggles to render it into understandable forms? The brain does not know that these electrical pulses are random. It simply attempts to process them as if they are actually coming from the sources it expects input from. Eyes, ears, nose, and so forth.

At first this sounds logical, but then two things come to mind:

1) People get electrocuited or shocked by electricity all the time by accident and they don't suddenly start seeing heaven, dead relatives and tunnels of light.

2) The shock paddles used to revive a patient don't put out a continuous flow of electricity, it's only a split second jolt- much like you get from contacting a live wire or getting a shock by accident while repairing a light fixture that's plugged in.

I know I've been shocked by accident dozens of times over the years, not one of those shocks ever resulted in any dreamy halucination effect, in fact it only produced an uncomfortable PAIN and the instant desire to jump way from it.

Any re-interpretation the brain might try doing to these reviving brief shocks with the paddles would not cause a dreamy long length halucination with the patient dreaming they are in a tunnel of light they pass through and see long lost dead relatives and communicate with them etc etc- the electric shock is only momentary.
The movie "Flatliners" is what I think of when I read this thread, they did a pretty good job recreating that after-dead dreamy world.

[TVC15]

People who like to jump on the naysay wagon and ride around touting that all people claiming NDE's were just hallucinating, simply don't know what they are talking about.

There's too much global evidence out there that is contrary to the "hallucination" speculation.

I don't need to have scientific evidence explain the obvious to me but for those who need this type of validation I suggest keeping an eye on the AWARE study. It's the best compilation of data to date on this topic.

World’s Largest Scientific Study on Mind-Brain May Finally Unravel Mystery Of What Happens When We Die

http://www.nourfoundation.com/events/Beyond-the-Mind-Body-Problem/articles-in-the-press.html

There are many unknowns in this Universe that we exist in and science has done it's best to unravel these unknowns. However there are many unknowns left to be discovered and the reality is science may never be able to shed light on them. For example they can tell us that there are Black Holes out there but yet they have never physically studied one nor will they ever be able to travel into Outer Space to conduct experiments on them or collect samples from them...so until then all they can do is speculate and theorize.

Same goes for consciousness...they have never been able to take a sample of it and measure it's properties, but we all know it exits. It's not very likely that they will ever be able to take a sample and measure it's properties and unlock it's unknowns...just like the Black Holes.

The Human Consciousness Project is a very informative site for those who like to keep up on this project.

[JerZ]

Originally Posted by Sculptor

1) People get electrocuited or shocked by electricity all the time by accident and they don't suddenly start seeing heaven, dead relatives and tunnels of light.

I could be wrong, but I could swear I've read quite a few times that a cessation of oxygen often results in tunnel vision/the sensation of being in a tunnel (in people who do NOT meet the criteria for NDE as well), feelings of floating/flying/"unworldiness," flashes of light and so on. I will try to find a link, if anyone is interested. I'm not sure anybody really is, so let me know.

As for seeing heaven and dead relatives, the overwhelming majority of the globe has been flooded with the idea that there is life after death, whether the argument is pro or con. Even if they don't think they believe in it, it is deep in their consciousness and subconscious through years or decades of conditioning. And thinking you're about to die can change many a person's mind...quick. (Note all the people who comment that they almost died and now they are suddenly religious...including people who DIDN'T have an NDE, they just got "that close" and now that it seems real, they want to believe there's something more "after." It's the old "there are no atheists in foxholes" adage, which I don't believe is 100% but do believe there is a pretty large element to.)

Therefore, the body (and perhaps the brain) both realizing that death could be imminent, hallucinations would invariably follow that paradigm...no? Meeting loved ones, seeing God, etc.?

[JerZ]

By the way, memory, even immediately after an event, is selective, reconstructive and fills in gaps with what the brain expects or in order to make fragmented details make more sense.