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Old 10-01-2021, 12:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I think the fallen angels possessed regular human men and used these bodies to have sex with the women, and some how they passed on their angelic DNA material to the women in the process...the baby was also probably normal size when it was born, but grew large and fast.
Yes, this is a prominent view that retains the ethereal view of spirits and also explains how they could likewise have flesh. My question would be, how did they pass on DNA if they have no corporeal form of their own? How would they even have DNA? For me, personally, it is an unnecessary step to add possession, especially since it is never referenced in the Bible (well, Satan possessed Judas, so there is some evidence there). Some argue demons are not the disembodied nephilim but are the fallen angels from Rev 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Im more interested in WHY this worked in the first place!! (God would have had to authorize such a union producing offspring)...we have tried mating different species and it doesnt work, (no offspring are created), why wasnt this the case with the fallen angels? why did their sexual relations produce offspring in the first place?!!
Now we're getting somewhere! These are the kinds of questions I have about this whole scenario. It would only have to be genetically possible for angels to procreate with humans, not sanctioned by God. Keep in mind, the consequences for this act by the angels was rather swift and severe. Jude and Peter both tell us (in off-handed remarks) that God imprisoned these angels in Tartarus "with everlasting chains under darkness." And that darkness is not a reference to an ordinary absence of life. The word for darkness here is described as a kind of tangible gloom. So, however the angels were able to impregnate the human women, God was not at all happy about it, and I can't imagine he condoned it.

I personally think the answer of how is found in the essential natures and shared heritage of angels and humans. The shared heritage is God, who created both. But, we are not given ANY information in the Bible concerning the origin narrative of angelic beings. All we get in the OT is a few statements about them already being present at the creation of the earth. Everything else about them, about how they were created, about what their purpose was/is has been whitewashed from the revealed record. Yet, if the angelic view is correct and angels are similar enough to humans to procreate with them, why? What was their origin story? How did they get to the position they hold now as sons of God? Were they ever mortal like humans? Why is the Christian trajectory to move closer to becoming like angels? Also, are angels a single homogenmous stock or are they distinct groups of beings (different species if you will) that became sons of God (i.e. angels) like Christians will one day become "like angels" and likewise sons of God?

I'm not so sure. But I definitely see a pattern. If we become like angels, were angels once like us (though still distinct from humans) who had their own redemptive narrative (before humans were created, maybe even before the physical universe was created at Gen 1:1)? Why are there only male angels depicted in the Bible? Did they once have females but they were wiped out? If the angelic view is correct these particular angels are certainly biologically male.

I extrapolate from this that if angels did have their own redemptive narrative before humans, then when the saved humans become sons God we will likewise take our place alongside the angels (we won't be exactly the same but very similar) and I think God will start out again on a new redemptive work that is completely new and separate from the human one, and saved humans will be known only as sons of God to the new species being saved.

Then again, I could be completely wrong about this. But I think it provides better descriptions of what might be possible after the close of Revelation when the lost, the devil, the antichrist, and the beast (and the fallen angels in Tartarus) have all been thrown into the Lake of Fire. There will certainly be a new heavens and a new earth, and a new city, Jerusalem, and it will be inhabited, but I don't think that is the whole story. We certainly haven't been told everything at this point. I think heaven or better, the afterlife in eternity, will be much different than what orthodox Christianity (especially protestantism or evangelicalism) allows for. I think it's going to be a wild ride.
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Old 10-01-2021, 05:11 PM
 
3,430 posts, read 1,843,310 times
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Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
By the way, Giorgio's hair has a fan site on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/GiorgioA.Ts...sHair?filter=2

The only guy whose hair is more interesting than he is.
That's the selling point of the show.

I remember one episode.. It was "Did you notice, your typical Grey aliens look like grasshoppers? Could they be related?"

My cat does have the almond eyes, possible E.T.
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Old 10-01-2021, 11:28 PM
 
28,122 posts, read 12,603,511 times
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Originally Posted by PatrioticSuperman View Post
That's the selling point of the show.

I remember one episode.. It was "Did you notice, your typical Grey aliens look like grasshoppers? Could they be related?"

My cat does have the almond eyes, possible E.T.
There is a bible verse that talks about evil spirits looking like frogs...if you look at a grays face, it is sort of like a frog.
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Old 10-01-2021, 11:33 PM
 
28,122 posts, read 12,603,511 times
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Originally Posted by Texas1239 View Post
Yes, this is a prominent view that retains the ethereal view of spirits and also explains how they could likewise have flesh. My question would be, how did they pass on DNA if they have no corporeal form of their own? How would they even have DNA? For me, personally, it is an unnecessary step to add possession, especially since it is never referenced in the Bible (well, Satan possessed Judas, so there is some evidence there). Some argue demons are not the disembodied nephilim but are the fallen angels from Rev 12.



Now we're getting somewhere! These are the kinds of questions I have about this whole scenario. It would only have to be genetically possible for angels to procreate with humans, not sanctioned by God. Keep in mind, the consequences for this act by the angels was rather swift and severe. Jude and Peter both tell us (in off-handed remarks) that God imprisoned these angels in Tartarus "with everlasting chains under darkness." And that darkness is not a reference to an ordinary absence of life. The word for darkness here is described as a kind of tangible gloom. So, however the angels were able to impregnate the human women, God was not at all happy about it, and I can't imagine he condoned it.

I personally think the answer of how is found in the essential natures and shared heritage of angels and humans. The shared heritage is God, who created both. But, we are not given ANY information in the Bible concerning the origin narrative of angelic beings. All we get in the OT is a few statements about them already being present at the creation of the earth. Everything else about them, about how they were created, about what their purpose was/is has been whitewashed from the revealed record. Yet, if the angelic view is correct and angels are similar enough to humans to procreate with them, why? What was their origin story? How did they get to the position they hold now as sons of God? Were they ever mortal like humans? Why is the Christian trajectory to move closer to becoming like angels? Also, are angels a single homogenmous stock or are they distinct groups of beings (different species if you will) that became sons of God (i.e. angels) like Christians will one day become "like angels" and likewise sons of God?

I'm not so sure. But I definitely see a pattern. If we become like angels, were angels once like us (though still distinct from humans) who had their own redemptive narrative (before humans were created, maybe even before the physical universe was created at Gen 1:1)? Why are there only male angels depicted in the Bible? Did they once have females but they were wiped out? If the angelic view is correct these particular angels are certainly biologically male.

I extrapolate from this that if angels did have their own redemptive narrative before humans, then when the saved humans become sons God we will likewise take our place alongside the angels (we won't be exactly the same but very similar) and I think God will start out again on a new redemptive work that is completely new and separate from the human one, and saved humans will be known only as sons of God to the new species being saved.

Then again, I could be completely wrong about this. But I think it provides better descriptions of what might be possible after the close of Revelation when the lost, the devil, the antichrist, and the beast (and the fallen angels in Tartarus) have all been thrown into the Lake of Fire. There will certainly be a new heavens and a new earth, and a new city, Jerusalem, and it will be inhabited, but I don't think that is the whole story. We certainly haven't been told everything at this point. I think heaven or better, the afterlife in eternity, will be much different than what orthodox Christianity (especially protestantism or evangelicalism) allows for. I think it's going to be a wild ride.
Its probably beyond our comprehension the details in how these fallen angels did what they did...its supernatural in nature, so basically ANYTHING is possible at that point.


There were times in the bible that angels took on a human form, they ate, drank, slept...so, where did the 'physical mass' come from (did it just materialize out of nothing or?)


Another thing, angels are said to be 'pure spirit', (but does that apply to our human world and their realm), or do they have some form in their realm, that maybe they can use in our world too? IDK?


I would think that angels have some kind of form in the afterlife though.
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Old 10-03-2021, 08:03 PM
 
9 posts, read 6,721 times
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Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
There is a bible verse that talks about evil spirits looking like frogs...if you look at a grays face, it is sort of like a frog.
Can you provide this reference? I would be very interested in reading it...
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Old 10-03-2021, 08:47 PM
 
9 posts, read 6,721 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Its probably beyond our comprehension the details in how these fallen angels did what they did...its supernatural in nature, so basically ANYTHING is possible at that point.
I would definitely agree that the nature and reality of the supernatural realm and the beings that exist in it are utterly incomprehensible to human beings. But, at some point, we will "know as we are known" and "we will be like him, for we will see him as he is." My focus is on 1. What is it about the supernatural realm or angels (or even God) that leads God to hide certain aspects of their narrative/reality from us? 2. Why does he hide from us the full nature or reality of our afterlife? Is it because we couldn't handle its ramifications? Because we simply wouldn't be able to comprehend the gravity of it all? Or some other reason? 3. If # 2 is correct in that we couldn't handle it, what exactly occurs at the rapture or the transformation (the "revealing of the Sons of God" and the point in which we will all be "changed" "in the twinkling of an eye") that renders us then capable of handling the realities of the supernatural realm? How is it that we cannot now "see him as he is" but will be able to at the resurrection?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
There were times in the bible that angels took on a human form, they ate, drank, slept...so, where did the 'physical mass' come from (did it just materialize out of nothing or?)
I personally think the idea that they "took on human form" is read into the text (we are literally programed from birth by our cultural worldview to think this way). Yet, nowhere in the Bible that I know of does it describe angels manifesting a form other than their own. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, but nowhere do we see an angel taking on a form of something that is not fundamentally it's own form. I think angels are "human-like" just as we are "angel-like" in the resurrection. We are made "just a little lower than the angels" yet there is great similarity. They consider themselves to be "fellow servants" with us and we narrow our differences greatly at the resurrection.

This idea that they take on human form must originate from the insistence of Christian theology to describe the supernatural realm as ethereal, as having no form, innate to itself. I think Paul removes this in 1 Co 15:40. Some important elements to consider: 1. it is talked about by Paul that we will "put on" immortality at the rapture/resurrection. It quite possibly could be the reverse for a divine being, needing to shed something as they enter into the material dimentionality. 2. Jesus made it abundantly clear, he was flesh and bone after his resurrection, yet he could still appear and disappear at will, and he ascended to heaven in that same body.

I think there is mass in the celestial body, just not physical mass (if that makes any sense at all). It is fundamentally different than the physical, material, yet there is substance to their supernatural dimensionality, and it is just as much if not more real than our reality (I think our physical reality is subsumed by the supernatural reality, quite possibly ours is artificial and their's the actual "real" reality).

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Another thing, angels are said to be 'pure spirit', (but does that apply to our human world and their realm), or do they have some form in their realm, that maybe they can use in our world too? IDK?
Again, I think this is a fundamental flaw in how we define or understand "spirit" as a concept. For humans it seems to always indicate or at least contain some level of ethereal, non-physical, invisibible, intangible essence to it (an almost less than quality in comparison to the physical world). But I don't think that is the case for the supernatural realm at all. It IS the case for two specific states and groups of beings. 1. humans who have died but have not yet resurrected, as they are disembodied souls in Paradise or Hades 2. unclean spirits or demons who are disembodied beings that roam the physical dimension and always seem to be seeking embodiment.

I would argue angels have a unique, tangible form that is innate and natural and essential to their existence as God created them (how and why and in what manner that happened has been hidden from our view). In the absence of any reference in the Bible of angels "transforming" from one state (spirit) to another state (spirit on earth) would lead me to conclude that the form we see in the Bible references is their essential form. Sometimes they are described as wearing white robes. Sometimes spiritual beings are described with having multiple faces and wings, etc. I'm a literalist so I try to accept what the Bible says and form my interpretation around the plain, straightforward reading, rather than the other way around. They literally have multiple faces. When we are raptured we will be physically, tangibly, fundamentally, esentially, most likely molecularly "changed." But, at the same time, the process by which this change will occur will take some kind of form that at least resembles putting something on.

I think when the Bible says "pure spirit" it means something fundamentally different than what we (our culture and worldview) have come to define it as. And I think we often do this instinctively/subconsciously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I would think that angels have some kind of form in the afterlife though.
I think not only do they have a form in the afterlife, but that form is the form they have currently AND that form they have is also the form we will have. I don't think it will be 100% exactly the same, since they are apparently a distinct creation from humans (either before Genesis 1:1 or at least at the moment of 1:1). Jesus says we will be "like angels." He never says we will become angels. Also, I extrapolate from our transformation that it is at least possible that angels previously experienced a transformation and maybe even a redemptive story of their own.
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Old 10-04-2021, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Charleston, SC
7,103 posts, read 5,986,609 times
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Originally Posted by LittleDolphin View Post
This news story has completely fascinated me. Ancient skulls discovered In Peru in the 1920's have had DNA testing--and are found not to be human. The Bible has referred to a race of people in ancient times as "Fallen Angels."

And Peru is where mountain tops have unexplained landing field lines carved into them.

Evidence seems to be pointing that there was an alien (at least not human) race inhabiting our earth way back when.

Kind of shatters our illusions of the past a bit, don't you think??

These Ancient Elongated Skulls Found In Peru Are NOT HUMAN | The Mind Unleashed

http://www.krmg.com/news/news/local/...rent-hu/ndL7G/
Mr Foerster, who was the director of the Paracas History Museum, has released details of DNA tests he said were carried out in conjunction with the Peruvian Government and he appears to now accept they were probably human in origin.
He described how the Paracas skulls appeared to share DNA links with other elongated skulls found between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea.
they could not have been intentionally deformed through head binding or flattening, as cranial deformation can change the shape but does not alter the volume or weight of a skull.
They were invaded by somebody and so they were forced to flee.
Archaeologist Mr Tello found more than 300 of the odd skeletal remains in a complex grave system in 1928.
Scientists say it was the most extreme example of skull elongation, a deformation practice carried out by several ancient cultures by binding infants heads through pieces of wood, ever found.
Since their craniums (Paracas) are 25 percent larger and 60 percent heavier than regular human skulls, researchers strongly believe that they couldn’t have been modified through binding.
They are also structurally different and only have one parietal plate as opposed to the two normally found in human skulls.
These differences have deepened the decade-old mystery around the Paracas skulls and researchers haven’t been able to explain their origins.
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Old 10-05-2021, 12:39 PM
 
28,122 posts, read 12,603,511 times
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Originally Posted by Texas1239 View Post
I would definitely agree that the nature and reality of the supernatural realm and the beings that exist in it are utterly incomprehensible to human beings. But, at some point, we will "know as we are known" and "we will be like him, for we will see him as he is." My focus is on 1. What is it about the supernatural realm or angels (or even God) that leads God to hide certain aspects of their narrative/reality from us? 2. Why does he hide from us the full nature or reality of our afterlife? Is it because we couldn't handle its ramifications? Because we simply wouldn't be able to comprehend the gravity of it all? Or some other reason? 3. If # 2 is correct in that we couldn't handle it, what exactly occurs at the rapture or the transformation (the "revealing of the Sons of God" and the point in which we will all be "changed" "in the twinkling of an eye") that renders us then capable of handling the realities of the supernatural realm? How is it that we cannot now "see him as he is" but will be able to at the resurrection?



I personally think the idea that they "took on human form" is read into the text (we are literally programed from birth by our cultural worldview to think this way). Yet, nowhere in the Bible that I know of does it describe angels manifesting a form other than their own. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, but nowhere do we see an angel taking on a form of something that is not fundamentally it's own form. I think angels are "human-like" just as we are "angel-like" in the resurrection. We are made "just a little lower than the angels" yet there is great similarity. They consider themselves to be "fellow servants" with us and we narrow our differences greatly at the resurrection.

This idea that they take on human form must originate from the insistence of Christian theology to describe the supernatural realm as ethereal, as having no form, innate to itself. I think Paul removes this in 1 Co 15:40. Some important elements to consider: 1. it is talked about by Paul that we will "put on" immortality at the rapture/resurrection. It quite possibly could be the reverse for a divine being, needing to shed something as they enter into the material dimentionality. 2. Jesus made it abundantly clear, he was flesh and bone after his resurrection, yet he could still appear and disappear at will, and he ascended to heaven in that same body.

I think there is mass in the celestial body, just not physical mass (if that makes any sense at all). It is fundamentally different than the physical, material, yet there is substance to their supernatural dimensionality, and it is just as much if not more real than our reality (I think our physical reality is subsumed by the supernatural reality, quite possibly ours is artificial and their's the actual "real" reality).



Again, I think this is a fundamental flaw in how we define or understand "spirit" as a concept. For humans it seems to always indicate or at least contain some level of ethereal, non-physical, invisibible, intangible essence to it (an almost less than quality in comparison to the physical world). But I don't think that is the case for the supernatural realm at all. It IS the case for two specific states and groups of beings. 1. humans who have died but have not yet resurrected, as they are disembodied souls in Paradise or Hades 2. unclean spirits or demons who are disembodied beings that roam the physical dimension and always seem to be seeking embodiment.

I would argue angels have a unique, tangible form that is innate and natural and essential to their existence as God created them (how and why and in what manner that happened has been hidden from our view). In the absence of any reference in the Bible of angels "transforming" from one state (spirit) to another state (spirit on earth) would lead me to conclude that the form we see in the Bible references is their essential form. Sometimes they are described as wearing white robes. Sometimes spiritual beings are described with having multiple faces and wings, etc. I'm a literalist so I try to accept what the Bible says and form my interpretation around the plain, straightforward reading, rather than the other way around. They literally have multiple faces. When we are raptured we will be physically, tangibly, fundamentally, esentially, most likely molecularly "changed." But, at the same time, the process by which this change will occur will take some kind of form that at least resembles putting something on.

I think when the Bible says "pure spirit" it means something fundamentally different than what we (our culture and worldview) have come to define it as. And I think we often do this instinctively/subconsciously.



I think not only do they have a form in the afterlife, but that form is the form they have currently AND that form they have is also the form we will have. I don't think it will be 100% exactly the same, since they are apparently a distinct creation from humans (either before Genesis 1:1 or at least at the moment of 1:1). Jesus says we will be "like angels." He never says we will become angels. Also, I extrapolate from our transformation that it is at least possible that angels previously experienced a transformation and maybe even a redemptive story of their own.
You bring up a good question of why God hides these things from us! It reminds me of the story that the fallen angels taught mankind the 'forbidden knowledge'...but some of them do make any sense why they would be hidden...makeup for women? Pharmacology? Astronomy? (If I recall correctly, there were 10-12 forbidden things they taught mankind)
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Old 10-09-2021, 09:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
You bring up a good question of why God hides these things from us!
This is the main focus of my research now. It was previously on death and the intermediate state, but I think I have a functional understanding now of what will happen, at least a broad understanding. Now I want to find out what God left out of the Bible and why it was left out. Quoting the Blues Travelers, "God I want to touch you in the place you want to hide."

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
It reminds me of the story that the fallen angels taught mankind the 'forbidden knowledge'...but some of them do make any sense why they would be hidden...makeup for women? Pharmacology? Astronomy? (If I recall correctly, there were 10-12 forbidden things they taught mankind)
Correct. It is quite interesting that what we consider quite mundane habits and activities were then considered forbidden knowledge. It does stand to reason, though, since humanity has been on a downward trajectory for much of its history, despite her advancements in many areas. These mundane things have rotted the core from the inside out.

The book of Enoch lists the ring leaders of the fall in Genesis 6:2 and what they did in corrupting the human race:

Araqiel = signs of the earth
Armaros = resolving of enchantments
Azazel = making of knives, swords, shields, ornaments and cosmetics
Gadreel = art of cosmetics, use of weapons and fighting tactics
Baraqel = astrology
Bezaliel = ?
Chazaqiel = meteorology
Kokabiel = astrology
Penemue = writing (art of), written languages, the bitter and the sweet, the secrets of wisdom
Sariel = courses of the moon
Samyaza = ?
Shamsiel = teaches the signs of the sun
Yeqon = first tempted the other Watchers into having sexual relations with humans

If all these creatures are just the ring leaders of the fallen angels in Genesis 6:2, then what are we humans really getting ourselves into at the resurrection? If there are legions of these supernatural beings in this other dimension and they've had who knows how long there to perfect their influences and alliances, and God apparently allows them enough freedom to abandon their positions and cause all this trouble in the physical realm, what is "heaven" really going to be like? It reminds me of the job someone rushes to accept without due diligence because he hates his current job only to discover the new job is ten times worse than the first. There appears to be no opt out options after the resurrection since the "former things have passed away." Will there be buyer's remorse in the afterlife? Will some liken heaven to a bait and switch scenario? If not, why all the cloak and dagger? Why all the "need to know" secrecy?
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