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Old 12-31-2014, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
67,554 posts, read 63,034,910 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post
Because of Astrology's connection the scariest 2 words in the Christian lexicon... the occult.

Ah! save me!
My sister is really into astrology. Years ago, she had all our charts done for Christmas. Mine says, "Stay away from the occult, it is not for you." I found it amusing that a part of the occult was telling me to stay away.

Interestingly, my chart also told me to watch for broken bones in childhood--sounds like a pretty good guess to me, but the only major injury I had as a child was a broken arm. However, another sister's chart in that same section said to watch out in childhood for vehicular accidents. She was hit by a car at 8.

I've never met anyone who was actually SCARED of astrology, though, Christian or otherwise.
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Old 12-31-2014, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 6,733,902 times
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So many statements based on ingnorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Again Skeptic View Post
IMO...Astrology does not scare people because "...it is not scientific." It "scares" people because it is "..superstition and a pseudoscience.."; and a scam and is illegal in many states (but not California where it is legal). It provides a method of separating people from their money through the use of magic and deception. Not all astrologists (amateurs) and astrologers (professionals) accept money. Some see it as a hobby, but many sell their ability for a profxit.
Astrologist vs Astrologer is not amature vs professional.
The term is simply astrologer. Non practitioners are the ones using the word astrologist because they just don't know any better.
There is no magic or deception in astrology.

Quote:
It (astrology) is based on the concept of divination which according to the practitioner (the reader) provides insight into the future of the subject (the sitter). This divination is said to have been gifted to the reader by one (or more) spiritual entities and although these entities usually go unidentified by the reader;
This is halarious! Where did you get this information!? I need a good laugh.
Astrology is NOT divination. It is a system. Divination is 'guided' by a supernatural force. Astrology is more like psychology. There are 'keys' and 'combination' that demonstrate certain characteristics.
There is NOTHING supernatural involved in the reading of a chart.
I'd tell someone who has Sun in Leo that they need to stop looking in the mirror at themselves, but I would not tell that to a Pisces; why? Because they are two different things, it is established and has been so for several thousand years. In Divination it is all random and subjective.

Quote:
it allows the reader to provide information to the sitter as to what lies ahead ie; the future. The reader will usually warn the sitter that the future is not "set in stone" and that the sitter has the ability to change things if they wish.
Change our future----duh! Anyone can see when they are headed down a bad road and if they don't like it, do something to change it.
This 'fortune telling' is dependant upon what kind of astrology one is doing. Natal charts are not fortune telling.
Horary astrology comes closest to any sort of divination.
However, an astrology chart is much like a weather chart. Yes it changes, that's how life is. Nothing is set in stone because there is cause and effect and what potential is possible and probable can be two different things.
Astrology is not about absolutes, it about potential and influence.
There is a midpoint placement that has been attributed to the sort of people (sign wise) that a person will find themselves surrounded by- for good or bad. In my studies, this midpoint rings true more often than not.
But not all people display such a collection of said signed people, but the potential is there.
Quote:
They will also warn that there are many "scam artists" out there; so people should be very careful. hmmmmm? Additional caveats are also included (depending upon the reader); no one under 18, no curses or hexes, no refunds hmmmmm? readings are for entertainment purposes only; injury or loss of assets are not the responsibility of the reader. They will also inform the sitter that the (the reader) is not here to convince anybody of anything and that "most" of their clients (sitters) are very satisfied.

$20-$40 per "read"... Group sessions $12... Mastercard, Visa and PayPal preferred; AMEX accepted.
Internet Horoscopes $10
Fortune cookies and Newspaper Horoscopes are deeply discounted.
I think your are getting your 'fortune tellers' mixed up. And only $40? To complile an astrological report takes hours! If they are charging $40, they are not real astrologers.
It's the gypsy witch psychics that like to speak of curses and hexes. Perhaps an astrologist even may spout off something about scammers - because if they are calling themselves astrologists - they ARE the scammer.
And as with anything- there are going to be liars, cheaters, scammers and thieves in all comers of commerce. It is not fair to put one who has hundreds of books and spent hours and hours learning the specifics, who just is there to pass that information along to those who seek it, into the 'fake' box.
It's fine for people to not believe it, but there are plenty of people who do. They do not have the knowledge of time to understand thier chart, so they pay someone for that service....
Where is the scam?
Quote:
Other forms of divination similar to astrology are the reading of: tarot cards, tea leaves, coffee grounds, cigar ashes, mold, dust, dirt and even dead animal entrails. In fact there are over 150 different identified methods of divining the future.
Again- astrology is not divination, and is no way similar to reading tea leaves or entrails. Tarot is also different as it has a defined structure where as tea leaves and such does not.
Divination requires some kind of ethereal force manipulating the objects being divined. There is none of that in astrology. In math 1-3 is -2, in astrology sun at 20 degrees Capricorn in opposition to Mars in Cancer is an indicator (not a determination) of aggressive attitudes that lead to a lot of problems. Where as if Mars was in Virgo, that aggression is used in a conservative manner and things are aquired rather than lost.
Quote:
The one constant is "the read". This is where the reader' "...feeds the bulldog." The true"gift" of the reader is not the gift of divination but rather the ability to convince the sitter that the read is valid; reliable; and has been written for no one else than that sitter. This is called the Forer Effect named for a research Professor who handed out a set of
horoscopes to all of the University students in his class. He them asked them to read the contents and assess it's relevance to each of them personally. 94 % of the class agreed that the horoscope was unique and relevant to each of them. He then read each of their horoscopes to the rest of the class. They were all the same. This "study" has been repeated thousand of times since then with the same results.
This one 'proof' has been used before. It is not at all a fair or accurate means to test astrology.
Show me the report. How detailed is it. How many pages, is it an actual report based off a real persons chart or is is totally a made up thing?
Too me it is a manipulated attempt by some big egos who have the need to be right.
Quote:
Cold reading, recognition bias, confirmation bias, etc. etc. This is what is "scary" about astrology and the gullible people who practice and accept it.
It's pretty hard to use these techniques when sitting at home alone typing up a 40 page astrological report that gets handed over to the client to read at a later time.
A person needs to be able to 'chit-chat' with another to use cold reading methods.
This is not possible in astrology- by a true astrologer.
The information is already there, the astrologer just puts together into a report.
If the clients moon is in Pisces, indicating that they are a kind and quiet person, an astrolger is not going to say that a Pisces moon is a party animal just because the client walking in smelling of booze.

So....nice try....but those points do not apply.
Astrology is not divination
Astrology readings do not involve curses and hexes
Astrology is not workable for cold readings
Astrology has never been given an accurate test.

And if astrology is a pseudoscience, then so is psychology.
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Old 12-31-2014, 11:51 AM
 
101 posts, read 86,845 times
Reputation: 43
Default Scary Astrology

In 1984 Clara Peller became the "star" of a Wendy's Restaurant advertisement when she uttered the words "...Where's the beef."

I have been studying astrology and it's history for over 50 years.

Here are some more "beefy" thoughts on why astrology is scary.IMO

1. Astrology and astronomy are both the result of the human quest for information.
2. We (humans) need answers to questions such as: "Why are we here...&... Where are we going?"
3. In order to provide those answers some people make use of science and the scientific method while
others depend on superstition and pseudoscience.
4. The ancient origins of astronomy and astrology are both based on our need to impart and obtain
meaning to and from the stars and planets.
5. The constellations: Leo, Taurus, Pisces, etc,. reminded people of actual animals that inhabit the earth.
6. Those animals(lions, bulls, fish)corresponded to line drawings that connected the stars and gradually
those drawings were associated with stories about each animal's physical and emotional
characteristics.
7. At some point in time, astronomers/astrologers started to attribute these characteristics to humans.
8. As we attained more knowledge (over thousands of years) it became apparent that a "divide" was
occurring between those who wanted to further study the position of the stars/planets and those who
wanted to attribute human personality traits and the associated predictive values to the stars/planets.
9. It is only in recent history that the question: "...What's your sign?" became a topic of conversation.
10. As it became clear that the positions of the constellations had changed drastically over thousands of
years and that many of it's stars no longer existed (we are still receiving light from these stars) the
scope and tone of the astrologer's message turned instead toward our solar system's sun and planets.
11. Supposedly, by receiving a person's exact time and location (at birth) an astrologer could not only
determine a set of personality traits but they could also predict that person's "life course."
12. As an added bonus the astrologer could also counsel the person's course of action
in dealing with any pit falls along the way.
13. As scientists (especially astronomers) began to critically question the basis for and the wisdom of
astrology it became clear that there were more questions than answers.

Since the exact time (in hours, minutes and seconds) of a human birth as well as the exact location of that birth is needed to determine a ]natal chart it would be assumed that chart is a constant and regardless of the number of experienced/ professional astrologers (known as "readers"); that chart would look the same (at birth). If 100 experienced professional astrologers all "charted" one person (known as the sitter) at birth; all of their charts would look the same? I would further postulate that a computer could be used to write that chart and it would correspond exactly with the 100 "experienced" astrologers. I would further offer that if I transported a pregnant human female to Toledo, Ohio; on January 1, 2015; and paid a doctor to induce "birth" at exactly 1:29 pm (& 33 seconds) I would be able to manipulate and predict that baby's predisposition in respect to personality, emotional characteristics and character.

Astrologers don't like to answer YES & NO questions. It probably provides no avenue of escape for incorrect responses. They will at least be right 50% of the time by guessing, but 50% of "hits vs "misses"
is not good. "Will I get married this year?" requires a "yes" or "no". it is better to have the sitter ask a question such as "..what can I do to increase my chances of finding someone I can form a lasting relationship?" This allows for much more "wiggle room" later when the sitter comes back for more answers (for another fee?)

Astrologers are essentially "guidance counselors" without the certification or the high "price tag" although some "professional" astrologers do command excessive rates. (There are astrology certification courses but they are "pricey" and are not recognized by any State or Federal bureaus.) All the more reason to beware.

Scary?Very!
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Old 12-31-2014, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 6,733,902 times
Reputation: 6078
Quote:
Since the exact time (in hours, minutes and seconds) of a human birth as well as the exact location of that birth is needed to determine a ]natal chart it would be assumed that chart is a constant and regardless of the number of experienced/ professional astrologers (known as "readers"); that chart would look the same (at birth). If 100 experienced professional astrologers all "charted" one person (known as the sitter) at birth; all of their charts would look the same? I would further postulate that a computer could be used to write that chart and it would correspond exactly with the 100 "experienced" astrologers.
If they are true professionals and are correct in thier math, then yes, all charts will look the same.
And yes- astrology deliniator programs are plenty. And I would imagine compared to each other, relatively the same as those that wrote it all use the same sources.

And what of astrologers being guidance counselors? If the advice given is sound and helpful, where is there a problem.
One can go to a Phd shrink and be sent in the wrong direction.
And how convient to look upon the government for validity and 'permission'.
The certification is for the same of the consumer, not to appease the government.
Would you want to have your coat tailored by a high school student who just finished home-ec class or someone who has been apprenticing for 5 years.
Again- I trust astrology more than I do the FDA.

As is with all things....you get what you pay for. Cheap generalized astrology reports with hexes is garbage. A $120 dollar price tag on a 40-60 page report that goes into every detail.
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Old 12-31-2014, 05:48 PM
 
5,128 posts, read 6,395,403 times
Reputation: 8396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Again Skeptic View Post
I have been studying astrology and it's history for over 50 years.
Judging by all the erroneous things you say about astrology, it seems your studies haven't gone very well.

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Old 12-31-2014, 06:06 PM
 
101 posts, read 86,845 times
Reputation: 43
Default Scary Astrology

I didn't say I believed in it I just said I "...studied it."

For the past 50+ years I have watched it be used to part people from their hard earned money.

Very similar to the guys that come to your door and want to re-surface your driveway with some
left over "sealer" from down the street. Very scary

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2015 Everybody
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Old 12-31-2014, 09:55 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
20,281 posts, read 23,823,458 times
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I recall reading, one time, of Lorenzo Lamas' mother (an astrologer) delaying his birth by 30 minutes so his moon would be in Aries, his father's sun sign.

I do believe the government wants the masses to be remain ignorant of the value of Astrology, as, for instance, they don't want the voters taking the masks off of political candidates and voting by Astrology.

Mitt Romney: Sun in Pisces, Moon in Scorpio And his wife: 4 planets in Aries!

Ted Cruz: Sun/Mercury in Capricorn, Moon in Libra, Venus/Mars Scorpio

Hillary: Sun in Scorpio/Moon in Pisces and Mars in hot/quick-tempered Leo!

Obama: Sun in arrogant, dictatorial Leo with a two-faced Moon in Gemini!

Divorce attorney's, marriage counselors would also be opposed to it! For obvious reasons, as they want people to continue on with all that "blind dating" that goes on! They might go broke, if people were paired up more suitably!
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:49 PM
 
12,664 posts, read 10,316,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
I refuse to believe that! You should consider being an attorney, as you've got that written across your forehead, and so should Jennifer! You two should open up a law firm together! In the legal world, may the best arguer win the case! And who loves to argue more than Aquarius, and throw in a Moon in Sagittarius, another argumentative type!

And, with your 18-cylinder engine Mars in Scorpio, there's nothing you can't attain if you set your mind to it! Those that counsel those with Scorpio placements: Find something that you can get really passionate about!

Scorpio is a sign of passion, and? Have you found your passion in life yet?
My wife was born on July 8, 1968. I'm more introvert due to Aspergers and now PTSD from things I experienced in the Navy. Both my wife and I were born in Lafayette Louisiana (don't know the time). She's passionate about sports. No sex since 2008 due to her spinal problems. A gentle hug, gentle kiss, and lightly touching her back or shoulder as we lay in bed before going to sleep is the extent of our passion. I did crazy stuff in the Navy with the help of booze. Gave up drinking in 1995.
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Old 01-01-2015, 10:21 AM
 
101 posts, read 86,845 times
Reputation: 43
Default Scary Astronomy

Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
I recall reading, one time, of Lorenzo Lamas' mother (an astrologer) delaying his birth by 30 minutes so his moon would be in Aries, his father's sun sign.

I do believe the government wants the masses to be remain ignorant of the value of Astrology, as, for instance, they don't want the voters taking the masks off of political candidates and voting by Astrology.

Mitt Romney: Sun in Pisces, Moon in Scorpio And his wife: 4 planets in Aries!

Ted Cruz: Sun/Mercury in Capricorn, Moon in Libra, Venus/Mars Scorpio

Hillary: Sun in Scorpio/Moon in Pisces and Mars in hot/quick-tempered Leo!

Obama: Sun in arrogant, dictatorial Leo with a two-faced Moon in Gemini!

Divorce attorney's, marriage counselors would also be opposed to it! For obvious reasons, as they want people to continue on with all that "blind dating" that goes on! They might go broke, if people were paired up more suitably!
I am a registered "independent" with no political affiliation but I would have anticipated a more detailed description of Romney and Cruz similar to what you provided for Hillary and Obama. "...hot/quick tempered Leo..." & "......arrogant, dictatorial Leo with a two faced moon...
. The political chaos in this country is "scary" enough without trying to inflict more bias using the "hocus pocus" of Astrology. Or as Faux News says;... "keep it fair and balanced...."
Happy New Year
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Old 01-01-2015, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 6,733,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Again Skeptic View Post
I am a registered "independent" with no political affiliation but I would have anticipated a more detailed description of Romney and Cruz similar to what you provided for Hillary and Obama. "...hot/quick tempered Leo..." & "......arrogant, dictatorial Leo with a two faced moon...
. The political chaos in this country is "scary" enough without trying to inflict more bias using the "hocus pocus" of Astrology. Or as Faux News says;... "keep it fair and balanced...."
Happy New Year
Hot, quick tempered, and arrogant, dictotial, and two-faced.
Remove the signs and that it is still how they are seen by a great number of people who have no clue or could care less about astrology.
So what's the difference?
In politics, hardly anyone in the general public is REALLY knowing of who they are voting for. We only see the 'media' persona. We compile everything we hear about a politician and make a determination of their character.
So is simple observation of just a few brief moments in a politicians life enough to determine if they are good for the job or not?

Now BAS is a hardcore disbeliever so much so he calls it 'hocus pocus' and mentions the 'scientific method'.
My dad was a scientist, I spent a lot of time with him and he taught me quite a bit in how to 'look' at things.
His main point was how we can be mistaken, self-deceived. So he taught me scrutiny.
My studies in astrology started with a 'test it' approach.
In science one starts with a hypothesis (which can become a theory)- 'the weight of 'A' determines the ratio of water displacement at 6:1 at a temperature of 22 degree Celcius.
In science, this would be set up, exicuted and recorded. The results would be calculated and then compared to the claim in the hypothesis. If the results match, great....now do it again....and again.....and again.
What of the times the results were different- what in the set up was different....now we are talking variables.

In astrology we have the hypothesis - 'Saturn in Leo- generous, but quick tempered, cautious, bold, determined, and strong willed. At times experiencing psychic conditions that effect health. Dangers from accidents and overworking-exhaustion. Sadness from love affairs and children'.
Now I gather all my charts and find all those who have this placement and compare thier life to the above statement. How well does it match? ..... Quite well actually! And when there was a contradiction, it was due to a strong aspect, usually a trine when it went towards the good and a square or opposition if towards the bad side of personal character and life experiences.

So I have tested astrology using a scientific approach. Of course it is not a sanctioned study so I make no claims of it being a scientific test- just a test that uses an approach that science uses.
The results are enough to show that there are more hits than misses in astrology.

So to use astrology to determine the personality of a politican may actually be more accurate description that what opinion we form based on what we see or read in the media- which is also going to hold an option that will effect our opinion.....that's really scary to me when I view the attitudes beliefs of the people who are the ones voting for these freaks.
Where astrology- just spells it out.....no bias...it is what it is.
I wonder if we had to vote 'blind' - based only on an astrological personality summary, who would be running things....and how.
I bet things would be A WHOLE lot different and balanced.
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