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Old 01-01-2015, 01:56 PM
 
5,128 posts, read 6,413,040 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Again Skeptic View Post
I didn't say I believed in it I just said I "...studied it."

For the past 50+ years I have watched it be used to part people from their hard earned money.
I didn't say you believed in it either, did I?

When you say you "studied astrology for 50+ years", most people will think you endeavored to learn astrology.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:10 AM
 
101 posts, read 87,245 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
Hot, quick tempered, and arrogant, (sic)dictotial,dictatorial? and two-faced.
Remove the signs and that it is still how they are seen by a great number of people ]who have no clue or could care less about astrology.] [[/I agree[
So what's the difference?
Ah, but there were enough people who did believe in Obama to elect him twice to the presidency. I, agree there are very few people who delve into the philosophies of the candidates the way they should but this is a choice (voting) that needs to be made. I would rather see each voter take the time to research the candidates in regard to what they say, what they write and how they have voted in the past rather than depending on their natal or astral chart. That would be scary
In politics, hardly anyone in the general public is REALLY knowing of who they are voting for. We only see the 'media' persona. We compile everything we hear about a politician and make a determination of their character.
So is simple observation of just a few brief moments in a politicians life enough to determine if they are good for the job or not?
It is not; but since your view is to pre-determine a candidate's abilities at birth and then try to predict the outcomes 40 years later is arcane and ridiculous. I would much rather investigate a candidate's lifelong "track record" before I start to look to the hocus pocus, oppps sorry! "flim flam" of astrology.[/b]


[B]Now BAS is a hardcore disbeliever ([/B[/b]]Wrong, I am a born again skeptic and a critical thinker [B]so much so he calls it 'hocus pocus' and mentions the 'scientific method'.[/b]
My dad was a scientist, I spent a lot of time with him and he taught me quite a bit in how to 'look' at things. You have detailed your relationship with your father in numerous past posts and your "assessments" of him have been very interesting. I would be more than willing to provide examples if you wish but only through a PM. That said, in what "scientific" endeavors did he participate? ;chemistry, biology, physics, etc? What academic degree(s) did he earn/receive? What schools, colleges, universities did he attend? What "research" has he been credited for? Has he ever been published? Can you provide examples?
His main point was how we can be mistaken, self-deceived. So he taught me scrutiny.
I am glad he did this. Was he successful.
My studies in astrology started with a 'test it' approach.
I assume you are referring to the Scientific Method?
In science one starts with a hypothesis Hmmm... you have chosen to exclude the "null hypothesis" which is used to limit bias. (which can become a theory)- 'the weight of 'A' determines the ratio of water displacement at 6:1 at a temperature of 22 degree Celcius.
In science, this would be set up What would be "set up"? Are you applying the theory/law of water displacement to a specific use or are you researching the reliability and validity of the theory/ law? , exicuted (sic) executed and recorded (What are you talking about.?. The results would be calculated and then compared to the claim in the hypothesis.(There are no "claims" in a null hypothesis only statistical results, analysis and possible conclusions. If the results match (Match what? great....now do it again....and again.....and again./COLOR]Again, are you trying to determine the validity and reliability of the law/theory or a specific application?
What of the times the results were different- what in the set up was different....now we are talking variables.I don't believe you have a complete understanding of the scientific method.
Do you have a degree in any of the sciences ie BS, MS, Doctorate? Have you taken any courses in research techniques? ie Chi square, probability, bias, parameters, conditions, predictability, validity, reliability, statistical analysis, anticipatory data, etc?


In astrology we have the hypothesis Sorry. but this is not a hypothesis; this is your description of the elements of an unproven pseudo-scientific explanation of the inter-relationship of the sun, planets and human personality and the incorrect profiling and rather insulting decription of future behavior [/COLOR]- 'Saturn in Leo- generous, but quick tempered, cautious, bold, determined, and strong willed. At times experiencing psychic conditions "psychic conditions? that effect health. Dangers from accidents and overworking-exhaustion. Sadness from love affairs and children'.
Now I gather all my charts and find all those who have this placement and compare thier life to the above statement. How well does it match?
Unfortunately, seldom if ever. ..... Quite well actually!Not very well actually...other than pure chance...and I would be more than willing to supply the many valid and reliable scientific research studies that demonstrate this.( And when there was a contradiction, it was due to a strong aspect, usually a trine when it went towards the good and a square or opposition if towards the bad side of personal character (From the perspective of over fifty years of scientific experience in research and three advanced degrees; this is total nonsense and completely erroneous. and life experiences.

[]So I have tested astrology using a scientific approach.
(Ummmm...no you haven't. Of course it is not a sanctioned study so I make no claims of it being a scientific test- just a test that uses an approach that science uses.[COLOR="red". Now, let me get this straight; it is a scientific test>..that is not a sanctioned scientific study (whatever that means) that uses an approach that science uses..." ![/color]
The results are enough to show that there are more hits than misses in astrology.(No it doesn't.Only "by chance" are there any "hits" and most of those are in retrospect ie validating unfounded conclusions to fit the original read especially when the "read" was so highly generalized that "one size fits all" . . Hind site and Monday Morning Quarterbacking are always 20/20.

Especially the Forty Niners!...boy was I wrong about that.

So to use astrology to determine the personality of a (sic) (politican) politician may actually be more accurate description that what opinion we form based on what we see or read in the mediaI hope you use more than opinions you read (or see) in the media?- which is also going to hold an option that will effect our opinion.....that's really scary to me when I view the attitudes beliefs of the people who are the ones voting for these freaks.(Freaks????...that is priceless!)
Where astrology- just spells it out.....no bias...it is what it is.That's true.;astrology-..nothing from nothing = nothing?
I wonder if we had to vote 'blind' (good choice of a word "blind")- based only on an astrological personality summary, who would be running things (I can only imagine...and it's not a pleasant thought....and how.And how!
I bet things would be A WHOLE lot different and balanced.
No they would not.
]If it was possible to inflict more chaos on the political agenda in this country this (astrology) would do it.

Have a great 2015
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Old 01-02-2015, 01:28 AM
 
101 posts, read 87,245 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
I didn't say you believed in it either, did I?

When you say you "studied astrology for 50+ years", most people will think you endeavored to learn astrology.
I not sure where you are going with this but I have studied astrology and I do know quite allot about it's origins, application and deception. in spite of this I have yet to find anyone who can explain how and why the sun and planets in our solar system can determine and predict the future existence of it's human inhabitants by detailing and determining the position of that sun and the planets at birth; in conjunction with our birth location.

I understand the concept and complexities of birth & astril charts.
I understand the concept of "recognition bias."
I understand "cold reading."
I understand The "Forer Effect".
I understand the "Barnum Effect."

As yet (as far as I know) no one has been able to can explain, demonstrate or produce the rational about how this practice (astrology) is valid or even exists?

Maybe you can?

I know that Magician & Skeptic James Randi has a certified check available for One Million Dollars to anyone who can explain and demonstrate it. Seems like a pretty good "prize" if someone is willing to accept the challenge.

How about you?
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Old 01-02-2015, 02:25 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 6,751,636 times
Reputation: 6078
Now you are making mountains out of molehills.
I don't believe I have gone into any details about my father so I don't know where you are getting that.
And yes, he has published two.
Addessing everything I'd like to would drive this further from its original course.
I disagee with much of your response- no surprise.
I do have an understanding of the scientific method
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/scienc...c_method.shtml
I covered all the bases.
And as goes what things would be like if based of astrological profiles is just an opinion, yet you seem to know the unknown, can't argue with that.

It's all fun and games until someone taunts the monkey. This monkey is taking its toys and going home.

Last edited by OwlKaMyst; 01-02-2015 at 02:27 AM.. Reason: Wrong link
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Old 01-02-2015, 06:46 AM
 
5,128 posts, read 6,413,040 times
Reputation: 8396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Born Again Skeptic View Post
I not sure where you are going with this but I have studied astrology and I do know quite allot about it's origins, application and deception. in spite of this I have yet to find anyone who can explain how and why the sun and planets in our solar system can determine and predict the future existence of it's human inhabitants by detailing and determining the position of that sun and the planets at birth; in conjunction with our birth location.

I understand the concept and complexities of birth & astril charts.
I understand the concept of "recognition bias."
I understand "cold reading."
I understand The "Forer Effect".
I understand the "Barnum Effect."

As yet (as far as I know) no one has been able to can explain, demonstrate or produce the rational about how this practice (astrology) is valid or even exists.
I'm not sure why you keep misinterpreting my words.

If some tells me "I've studied astrology for 50+ years", I'm going to assume they studied to learn the skill of astrology.

Simple questions - Can you read and interpret astrology charts? Are you an astrologer?

If the answer is "No", then you should consider changing your words to "I've studied the debunking of astrology"; NOT that you've "studied astrology."
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:17 AM
 
Location: A State of Mind
6,115 posts, read 2,679,008 times
Reputation: 5440
I think it "scares some", due to it not being something tangible or believable, and I realize it sounds kind of wacky as to its origin. However, I cannot help but having found something to it, not considering the "daily horoscopes" to mean much, which can contribute to a negative perception of Astrology, but had read about "Sign personality traits", planetary placements and the elements, that we all have portions of different signs within our personalities. I found I began recognizing traits in others and would point out, sometimes kiddingly, what sign I thought a person was born in, from observing and seeing how they conducted themselves. Well, of course, I too would get a shocked reaction.. but I felt I couldn't help but comment, even today, because it has stayed with me.

Now, I am hardly an Astrologer or knowledgeble in creating actual charts, but have looked up where placements can be for birth dates and birth times, if available and know that a birth time and place is necessary for a real chart. I have just remembered certain points and if hearing one's birth date, I will know which sign it is or will tell that they lean towards the sign before or after their Sun sign, or are on the cusp. (I have also had an interest in numerology and ESP and test myself, sometimes).
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:19 AM
 
101 posts, read 87,245 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooting Stars View Post
I'm not sure why you keep misinterpreting my words.

If some tells me "I've studied astrology for 50+ years", I'm going to assume they studied to learn the skill of astrology.
It is not good to make assumptions.
especially when you don't have all the information necessary to make the assumption.
That is exactly why I asked you where you were going? There is NO SKILL in astrology, the "skill" occurs when the "reader" (the astrologer) creates a"magical mystery tour" of the "sitters" life. It's not in the stars..it's not in the sun...it's in the "read."

Simple questions - Can you read and interpret astrology charts? Are you an astrologer?
I can read astrological charts but I am not sure what you mean by "interpret>." This is where the astrologer (no I am not an astrologer; nor do I want to be) separates themselves from reality. The chart is simple; it can be accomplished through the use of a computer. So is the listing of the "sitter's" (supposed) psychological and emotional attributes and tendencies. It (the read) becomes totally irrational (IMO) when the "reader" begins to explain the "sitter's" future and how the "sitter" needs to make changes in their life experience.

If the answer is "No", then you should consider changing your words to "I've studied the debunking of astrology"; NOT that you've "studied astrology."
I have studied astrology extensively and after much analysis over many years I have concluded that it is deceptive and a fraud. When I first started my investigation (over 50 years ago) I was just as intrigued as anyone. I actually had (early on) a number of charts constructed and read by "expert" (I am not quite sure what that means? Are you an expert astrologer?)astrologers and I was amazed as to how accurate they were. But, as I researched the history and implementation of the "read" (especially "cold reading" and "recognition bias") I started to question (and investigate) why..I associated myself with the "read.' It became apparent that the "read" was so generalized that it could apply to anyone. I even shared "my read" with some of my friends without telling them it was written especially for me.The results were (again) amazing. Each of my friends associated themselves almost totally with "my read." How can that be? After many years and much research I discovered how it (astrology) "really" worked. The "debunking" as you put it didn't come easily. I wanted to believe! But that was the problem.I eventually "couldn't believe...It actually became agonizing to watch people get scammed.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 6,751,636 times
Reputation: 6078
And the laughs keep coming....
To read an astrology chart IS to interpret it.
The 'skill' is the memorization of what the placements and aspects mean.
Knowing the meaning of a particular planet in a particular house.
A mathematician has a 'skill' of having memorized hundreds of different formulas.
Astrology is the same thing. What are the traits of sun in Aries, What are the traits of sun in Taurus.

This is what is SO frustrating to me about those who try to argue astrology.
An it is probably not astrology that is really the problem, it's people who have to be right, can't stand that something that cannot yet be explained by science is being believed by others...
They repeat themselves even when being shown that 'point A or B' does not fit the argument.
There is NO cold reading....anyone with a shelf full of the right books and the time to transcribe a report can do so.
The sitter is not even present.
A typed report is made and handed over to the 'sitter'....
No cold reading
No cold reading
No cold reading
...it's impossible to cold read a person who is not present.

Grrrr.....smart people start sounding really dumb at a certain point.
That's scary!
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:41 PM
 
13,656 posts, read 22,299,833 times
Reputation: 24561
It's devolving into a fight and it's closed.
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