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I'm not advocating anything, just asking for an open mind. You're free to make your own choices -- and when I say this, whether you want to admit it or not, you are free to make your own choices because for centuries there have been "Pope is the Antichrist" types challenging the authority and total though-control of the Papacy. And if you believe that that this is all fodder for "Weekly World News crowd" consider what the Catholic church up until relatively recently (and in some cases still does) considers "common sense". If the thought of the Vatican scanning the sky for aliens is laughable, what about the Virgin Mary appearing to children on mountain tops making prophetic statements or statues of the Virgin Mary oozing "blood"? I mean these are just some of the public aspects of Catholicism, who knows what kind of ideas are floating around behind closed doors...
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Originally Posted by Vasily
Although I don't need to read a book whose title includes the phrase "the Vatican's astonishing plan for the arrival of an alien savior" to know that (1) it's aiming first for the Weekly World News crowd, (2) it's aiming also for the "Pope is the Antichrist" crowd, and (3) its relationship to reality is on the same level as the movie "Bubba Ho-Tep" (which at least had the virtue of being a funny fantasy) ... In spite of all that, I just purchased the book for my Kindle. I look forward to posting a review when I finish it, whch I'm sure you'll reject since you've outed me as a secret agent of Opus Dei.
I'm not advocating anything, just asking for an open mind. You're free to make your own choices -- and when I say this, whether you want to admit it or not, you are free to make your own choices because for centuries there have been "Pope is the Antichrist" types challenging the authority and total though-control of the Papacy. And if you believe that that this is all fodder for "Weekly World News crowd" consider what the Catholic church up until relatively recently (and in some cases still does) considers "common sense". If the thought of the Vatican scanning the sky for aliens is laughable, what about the Virgin Mary appearing to children on mountain tops making prophetic statements or statues of the Virgin Mary oozing "blood"? I mean these are just some of the public aspects of Catholicism, who knows what kind of ideas are floating around behind closed doors...
As far as I know, Roman Catholics aren't obliged to believe in private revelations like Fatima, or in alleged miracles like weeping statues. The Vatican takes a skeptical and cautious approach to these things. And all major religions East and West belueve in miracles meaning the breaking through of the divine or other worldly into everyday reality.
These popular beliefs and pieties have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the Vatican's astronomical activities. And it's not the notion that the Vatican astronomers might decide to search for signs of extraterrestrial intelligence that I find laughable, it's the assertion that they're looking for aliens to "convert". That's a Bat Boy headline if I ever saw one, and if the book in question proves that's the case beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll eat my hat.
Of course they do -- publicly. Many are obvious hoaxes and they would be foolish to rubber stamp them as a "miracle". Some, however, gain a lot of public support, so the Vatican has to go through the motions so as not to offend millions of the "faithful". As far as I know only one weeping Virgin statue has been deemed a "miracle" during the last century -- but this is more than enough to demonstrate that the Vatican accepts this wholeheartedly as legitimate. No, "Roman Catholics aren't obliged to believe in private revelations like Fatima," but many do, and the Vatican is certainly willing to exploit these kinds of things when it's to its benefit.
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Originally Posted by Vasily
As far as I know, Roman Catholics aren't obliged to believe in private revelations like Fatima, or in alleged miracles like weeping statues. The Vatican takes a skeptical and cautious approach to these things. And all major religions East and West belueve in miracles meaning the breaking through of the divine or other worldly into everyday reality.
So hypothetically if masses of refugees from another star system showed up and were given safe haven on Earth, the Vatican would consider them exempt from conversion? That would be an interesting debate. Do space aliens have souls? and therefore worthy of going to Heaven. Good way to alienate - so to speak - our new-found friends and initiate another round in the civil rights movement.
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These popular beliefs and pieties have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the Vatican's astronomical activities. And it's not the notion that the Vatican astronomers might decide to search for signs of extraterrestrial intelligence that I find laughable, it's the assertion that they're looking for aliens to "convert". That's a Bat Boy headline if I ever saw one, and if the book in question proves that's the case beyond a reasonable doubt, I'll eat my hat.
Of course they do -- publicly. ... Some, however, gain a lot of public support, so the Vatican has to go through the motions so as not to offend millions of the "faithful". ... only one weeping Virgin statue has been deemed a "miracle" ... this is more than enough to demonstrate that the Vatican accepts this wholeheartedly as legitimate. ... private revelations like Fatima," but many do, and the Vatican is certainly willing to exploit these kinds of things when it's to its benefit.
You said you were just looking for people to keep an open mind about things. OK, I'll bite; what hard proof do you have to offer us about the Vatican's "secret" motives that the above seems to indicate you're privy to? And do you judge us as having "open minds" only if we agree with your opinions?
(by the way, you might want to look up "wholeheartedly" in your Funk & Wagnall's)
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So hypothetically if masses of refugees from another star system showed up and were given safe haven on Earth, the Vatican would consider them exempt from conversion? That would be an interesting debate. Do space aliens have souls? and therefore worthy of going to Heaven. Good way to alienate - so to speak - our new-found friends and initiate another round in the civil rights movement.
Oh, my ... This is so silly it leaves me speechless.
So hypothetically if masses of refugees from another star system showed up and were given safe haven on Earth, the Vatican would consider them exempt from conversion? That would be an interesting debate. Do space aliens have souls? and therefore worthy of going to Heaven. Good way to alienate - so to speak - our new-found friends and initiate another round in the civil rights movement.
In all seriousness, I think it would do you a world of good to get to know some knowledgeable Catholics or read some books by knowledgeable Catholics rather than relying on the anti-Catholic propaganda. I hope you genuinely mean well, but your posts display a remarkable ignorance of Catholic theology, science, and practice.
In all seriousness, I think it would do you a world of good to get to know some knowledgeable Catholics or read some books by knowledgeable Catholics rather than relying on the anti-Catholic propaganda. I hope you genuinely mean well, but your posts display a remarkable ignorance of Catholic theology, science, and practice.
My primary source for the truth and the complete lack of legitimacy for the Catholic church is called the Bible. If you consider that to be "anti-Catholic propaganda," then I'd say that you have a serious problem there. The Catholic church should not be exempt from criticism, and while critiques of that institution do differ considerably in quality, many raise legitimate issues. Fortunately, many true Christians over the centuries have cast of the yoke of Papal oppression (some had to pay with their lives, though) so that they could again live according to Christ's teachings rather than the contrived worldly rituals of the Vatican. This has thankfully weakened the Catholic church somewhat and forced it to lighten up (temporarily, at least) a bit - on the other hand this either deludes the apologists into believing the church really isn't so bad, or makes it easier to try and dupe the unsuspecting.
Anyway, this is way off topic, which I suspect is your only real purpose here. Care to actually comment on the book? If not, and all you really want to do is gush about and make excuses for the Catholic church, couldn't you just run along to the "Paganism" sub-forum?
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Originally Posted by Mark S.
In all seriousness, I think it would do you a world of good to get to know some knowledgeable Catholics or read some books by knowledgeable Catholics rather than relying on the anti-Catholic propaganda. I hope you genuinely mean well, but your posts display a remarkable ignorance of Catholic theology, science, and practice.
My primary source for the truth and the complete lack of legitimacy for the Catholic church is called the Bible.
I'm not questioning your knowledge of the Bible. But looking in this thread and your other posts, it's obvious you don't know anything about actual Catholic theology, organization, practice, and lifestyle. You're basing your opinions on anti-Catholic propaganda. It's not all that different from the typical anti-Semitic conspiracy theories involving Hollywood and the world economy, or the yellow peril scare from 70+ years ago. It's a bunch of paranoid propaganda that thrives on ignorance.
And (keeping this on topic) this is why anyone even entertaining the notion that the Vatican is looking for aliens in some sort of weird conspiracy with the anti-Christ is preposterous. Anyone who knows even a teeny-tiny bit about Catholic theology and the Church's relationship to science in general and astronomy in particular knows how laughable that is.
Don't get me wrong. It would make a great Chick Tract. But to be taken seriously? No. There's more credence to Elvis sightings.
Is Mark S. going to read the book and comment on the actual content of the book -- the whole purpose of this thread?
Your first couple of posts you came out swinging against me - and you were the one who started with the negative comments about Roman Catholics. In short, it sure looks like you're the one who derailed this thread.
I have purchased the book in question (goodbye, my beloved $10 bill) and am on chapter two at present. The book introduction is by Charles "Chuck" Missner, bible prophecizer extraordinaire and sometimes plagiarizer. Who one chooses for the introduction and preface to a work says much about a book's intended audience. He writes in the intro, "Many of us have traditionally regarded the Roman Catholic church as the most exclusive club on the Earth. Now we find it reaching out to be among the most inclusive: even Islam is embraced! (Yet the anathemas against Protestants still stand.)" Nah, they're not about RC bashing at all. And they're definitely not marketing to evangelical Prots with a burr intheir saddle about the Beast of Rome at all.
What I've read so far is mildly entertaining, and about as factual as an episode of Ancient Aliens. Will post more when I get further into it.
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