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Old 07-11-2015, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 6,744,157 times
Reputation: 6078

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Quote:
Originally Posted by emanresu1 View Post
The desperation seems to be on the side of the "skeptics."
That's what I see.
I'm not desperate to have anyone believe the experiences I have had. I know that some of what I have experienced is 'unbelievable' so totally understand another's disbelief.

If someone challenges me, saying that what happened to me did not happen because of x y & z, I will correct them and inform that x,y & z are irrelevant due to a, b & c. It's not always easy to explain all the details an aspects of an event, but can then recall when some says, "ya, but..."
I can see how that may appear to be desperation, but it is only clarification and more details of the experience.

Skeptics like to push it. Rather than honoring a persons experience and beliefs, they flat out say that the person is wrong and is 'all in thier head' or other such negating comments.

Well, it's not 'all in our gullible heads'. The 'true believers' of the UEM&P will first look for logical explanations of a given event and rule out all possibilities before venturing into the paranormal & mystical.
It would seem to me that desperation would make believers take every situation and twist it in a way to give themselves ammunition for the cause....but that does not happen.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Southwestern, USA
19,345 posts, read 14,844,705 times
Reputation: 20057
Why?
Emotional insecurity.
Approval addiction.
A hole in us that feels better when another agrees...so a dependence...a co-dependence
on what the other feels or thinks about us or our beliefs.
The insecurity probably came from the family of origin's dysfunction...
the parents ignoring or shaming the child.
They may have watched someone else being listened to and respected, but never them.

Now as an adult the memory/ the pain is triggered...they go right back to the
undeveloped child-mind.

Another way to say it simpler...they lack inner peace, thus, confidence in themselves.
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Old 07-11-2015, 11:31 AM
 
1,684 posts, read 539,861 times
Reputation: 1596
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
That's what I see.
I'm not desperate to have anyone believe the experiences I have had. I know that some of what I have experienced is 'unbelievable' so totally understand another's disbelief.

If someone challenges me, saying that what happened to me did not happen because of x y & z, I will correct them and inform that x,y & z are irrelevant due to a, b & c. It's not always easy to explain all the details an aspects of an event, but can then recall when some says, "ya, but..."
I can see how that may appear to be desperation, but it is only clarification and more details of the experience.

Skeptics like to push it. Rather than honoring a persons experience and beliefs, they flat out say that the person is wrong and is 'all in thier head' or other such negating comments.

Well, it's not 'all in our gullible heads'. The 'true believers' of the UEM&P will first look for logical explanations of a given event and rule out all possibilities before venturing into the paranormal & mystical.
It would seem to me that desperation would make believers take every situation and twist it in a way to give themselves ammunition for the cause....but that does not happen.
That's a good way of putting it.

To draw a comparison, if John Doe says he saw a UFO land in his cornfield, the "skeptics" will say he must have been drunk, on drugs, has a screw loose, or is trying to perpetrate a hoax.

If Jane Doe says she thinks there is a giant cosmic invisible boogie-man floating around up in the sky somewhere, she will be given a Sunday morning t.v. show in a big auditorium and ask for people to send millions of dollars. The people who don't buy it won't say that she is drunk, on drugs, has a screw loose, or is trying to perpetrate a hoax. They will simply change the station to football or whatever.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:06 PM
 
12,631 posts, read 10,318,287 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emanresu1 View Post
That's a good way of putting it.

To draw a comparison, if John Doe says he saw a UFO land in his cornfield, the "skeptics" will say he must have been drunk, on drugs, has a screw loose, or is trying to perpetrate a hoax.

If Jane Doe says she thinks there is a giant cosmic invisible boogie-man floating around up in the sky somewhere, she will be given a Sunday morning t.v. show in a big auditorium and ask for people to send millions of dollars. The people who don't buy it won't say that she is drunk, on drugs, has a screw loose, or is trying to perpetrate a hoax. They will simply change the station to football or whatever.
NOT TRUE AT ALL!!!

Those that don't believe will accuse Jane Doe of being ignorant, illogical, a sheep, fearful, and lacking the ability to think critically.

Let's not play "who's the bigger martyr" game. There's no need to get angry because some people don't believe what you believe. That's the OP's point.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,795 posts, read 4,512,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
Skeptics like to push it. Rather than honoring a persons experience and beliefs, they flat out say that the person is wrong and is 'all in thier head' or other such negating comments.
Here's the viewpoint of one of those skeptics ...

There are two kinds of skeptics here I've seen over the past couple of years: first, those like myself, who have a sincere interest in the topics covered here and raise issues about perception and interpretation because there are truth claims made in this forum, and if you're going to make a truth claim it's not "honoring" that claim by accepting its objective truth on face value. It's one thing, in other words, to say "I saw something weird last night and I don't know what it means" and to say "I saw a light in the sky that changed color, so that proves aliens are visiting us in UFOS." Most of us who are skeptics have "honored" those experiences by questioning them rather than nodding and going "wow!". We believe person X believes he/she has experienced Y, what we're questioning are things like the quality of the sensory input that led to the belief, the interpretation of that sensory input, the difference between the original experience and the recollection of it, and questioning any logical problems with a claim that's being made.

The second category are drive-by trolls who drop a bomb and usually don't stick around for the outcome. I don't see there have been all that many of those in this forum; those drive-bys who have been here seem to be mostly hard-core atheists who see any "illogical" claims (religious or otherwise) as corrosive and dangerous. Yet, the True Believers here lump everyone together and assume the same motives on the part of the first category of first category skeptics like myself , going so far as to make ridiculous claims that we're in the pay of the Illuminati, or some shadow government organization. Or that we "push it" (whatever that means). They lump us with the occasional troll in this forum, in other words, and read evil motives into our being here and what we're saying. In terms of object relations theory in psychology, that's the unhealthy defense mechanism called "splitting".

When a skeptic like myself makes points about the lability of memory, or the tendency of the human brain to find patterns everywhere, or the possibility that the poster is misinterpreting the evidence of his/her sentences, we automatically become in the minds of some villains and evil people to be shouted down. At least, that's how it feels to a skeptic like myself who's been the target of such treatment. I've posted my own paranormal experiences here, though I've always qualified it because I have a background in clinical psych and understand how my recollections of my own experiences may not be 100% accurate. For a cinematic version of this, see the Japanese flick Rashomon.

I find myself looking in a thread for certain names, knowing that if I post in that thread I'll be immediately jumped on because I'm "one of them". Too bad, because if all us skeptics go away this forum will have lost something important: a voice to raise questions about (in Marcello Truzzi's words) extraordinary claims that require extraordinary proof. You'll end up with a community of "faith" celebrating and honoring the beliefs of its members, no matter how unfounded or distorted they are. If that's what the True Believers really want, they're welcome to it.

Last edited by Vasily; 07-11-2015 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 07-11-2015, 01:54 PM
 
48,508 posts, read 88,704,810 times
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I am not into this. But lets see; if I see something unbelievable normally and no one else saw it I have doubt what I saw. If others saw the same thing its much less doubtful. Heck I have had other see same thing and they easily explained it convincing also. Faith is a different topic ;OP.
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Old 07-11-2015, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,795 posts, read 4,512,518 times
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Correction: in paragraph 4, "evidence of their sentences" should be "evidence of their senses"
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Old 07-11-2015, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
7,073 posts, read 3,536,667 times
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I have had a 'paranormal' experience (three times actually). Other's have described the same experience. I have considered the possibilities and don't know what to make of it. It remains "unexplained". But I have no desire for anyone else to accept or 'believe' anything I've experience (or think I've experienced) or agree with my experience. I do find it interesting that someone else has had a similar experience though.
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Old 07-11-2015, 08:40 PM
 
15,921 posts, read 18,359,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
So...who do think responsible for argument side of discussions? Some forum members will engage in defending their beliefs and offer explanations of experience and vast knowledge.
If one truly believes in something why do they need to have that reenforced by some Internet person? Sounds like a personal defect...

Quote:
Would you go into a forum where you have no experience or knowledge to speak from and argue?
Being a long time reader of this forum I can state there have been numerous times where that exact scenario takes place at least on a weekly basis...

All the people are doing is regurgitating myths and erroneous information.

Witness for example how many people here fawn over and take as FACT whenever MUFON comes out with some type of statement... Never once to they question the pedigree of the "MUFON investigators"

Do some people ever bother to actively research something thats posted here or do they just go to the posted article (if that) without ever questioning is there another side to this?

Of course I blame Umbly of the Seventh Dimension for the wispiness I see sometimes at night, and Svetlana of North Umbria for the glowing balls of light...
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Old 07-11-2015, 09:05 PM
 
13,634 posts, read 22,273,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by plwhit View Post
If one truly believes in something why do they need to have that reenforced by some Internet person? Sounds like a personal defect...



Being a long time reader of this forum I can state there have been numerous times where that exact scenario takes place at least on a weekly basis...

All the people are doing is regurgitating myths and erroneous information.

Witness for example how many people here fawn over and take as FACT whenever MUFON comes out with some type of statement... Never once to they question the pedigree of the "MUFON investigators"

Do some people ever bother to actively research something thats posted here or do they just go to the posted article (if that) without ever questioning is there another side to this?

Of course I blame Umbly of the Seventh Dimension for the wispiness I see sometimes at night, and Svetlana of North Umbria for the glowing balls of light...
Well -- because even if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's nice to know other people see ducks, too.

I do get what you're trying to say, though.

Right now I am dealing with a bunch of "rightfighters" at work. As they go on and on (and on and on) I remind them often I don't have a dog in the fight. Yes --I am almost ashamed I am using Dr Phil-isms with people, but they work.

And yet they won't SHUT THE *NAUGHTYWORD* UP.

Pretty much, I've started waving and taking off when I see them in the hallways because I JUST DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT ANYMORE.

And they don't have the grace to even express happiness when I tell them things like I get to make another baby blanket for grand niece/nephew number 3 due in 7 months. Or that my sick cat is better. Or that I read a good book.... ANYTHING TO STOP THE PAIN...

And I also understand wanting real proof -- but I do genealogy... and sometimes there is only one really bad source for a piece of information. Sometimes there is only a piece of family lore. In the case of my late much loved father in law -- all of his family lore was complete nonsense. Of course, I didn't know any of this until long after he died....and I really got into genealogy.

All you can do is take what you are given and smile and say thank you. It's not your job to hold people to a higher threshold here. People believe what they want to believe. And people want to believe. I had a friend who believed in only herbal meds all the way to her grave. Her prerogative. I didn't like it, but who's to know the cure wouldn't have killed her anyway? It's also not the choice I would have made... but I don't have the right to make decisions for everyone else...
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