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Old 09-02-2015, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Here is a 'blueberry stalk It is plain to see at the bottom left corner. There is also a 'living stone' kind of spherule which might be a fungi rather than a concretion. I will leave you to decide.


Now do you all think there is plant life on Mars?
I have no idea, but nothing you have posted has changed my mind either way. I am not sure if you are that interested as you do not seem interested in addressing any of the more difficult questions to your statements and you generally lack specifics. You question scientists and researchers and post things like "It might be" and "they" say such and such.
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Old 09-02-2015, 01:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Here is a 'blueberry stalk It is plain to see at the bottom left corner. There is also a 'living stone' kind of spherule which might be a fungi rather than a concretion. I will leave you to decide.




Now do you all think there is plant life on Mars?
Are there plants on Mars? Maybe, but I'm not convinced based on what you've shown. Just because something resembles a "living stone", doesn't automatically mean it's a fungi. It does kind of resemble a living stone plant though. A living stone plant is a succulent related to ice plants. Even if it's not a plant, it's still very interesting. The other object is, I assume, what appears to be an elongated tubular-shaped object with an indentation on the end. I think such speculations are more likely examples of paredolia. Thanks for posting them though. That helps better understand what you're talking about.
Amazon.com : Living Stone Plant - Lithops - 1.5" POT - Strange Plant : Flowering Plants : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Ideally, if every unusual shaped object could be examined in detail, we'd all know precisely what such things are. Sometimes things are spotted in images later after the rover has left the area. From a practical standpoint requests from the general public are seldom considered. It would completely slow down the mission. While the MSL (Curiosity) rover may last much longer than is expected, there's no real way to know. If it experiences a breakdown or failure of some kind, that could mean the end of the mission. That said, both the Spirit and Opportunity rovers lasted much longer than had been thought. Spirit finally bit the dust (), but Opportunity is still chugging along although getting weaker. Curiosity might prove to be just as durable. With any luck, Curiosity might make it up to or near the top of Mt. Sharp.

I think it's fair to note that between all the rovers and landers exploring the surface of Mars, it represents an extremely tiny portion of the planet. There's a LOT more of the planet to be explored. Unfortunately, Curiosity is pretty much stuck in Gale Crater. Even if Curiosity could last for decades, not only would it have to go back down Mt. Sharp, but it'd have to find a way out of the crater. There might not be a way out or it could get stuck in loose sand along the walls of the crater. What is needed is some kind of equipment that can fly around to cover more territory. Hmm - I wonder if a good-sized drone would work to transport smaller rovers or probes to different locations?

As has already been noted, it is not an official position to declare that there is no life on Mars. Mars isn't as large as the Earth, but it's still very large to explore. Much of the purpose of exploring Mars (among other reasons) is to try to determine if life has ever existed on Mars in the past, or perhaps still does. The answer to that is still unknown. At the very least, the conditions of Mars in its past is considered was probably suitable for life, although that doesn't automatically mean that life did form. It means that life could have formed. At the same time, the possibility that life, even if only microbial, might still exist underground.

One thing that had raised the question of possible life currently on the planet, was the pockets of methane which appeared and disappeared in various locations. Curiosity is able to "sniff" the atmosphere to detect the presence of methane, which could be caused my living things (or it could also be geological). Curiosity found nothing. Maybe some other parts of the planet would prove more rewarding. That's going to have to wait for another rover to do, and who knows how long it will be before that happens?

Personally, I still think that if life is to be found anywhere in the solar system, Mars is probably the most likely and the easiest planet to explore. I'm pretty skeptical that any life on Mars is going to be found on the surface, such as the "moss" or "fungi puffballs". I think it would more likely be deep underground or sheltered in caves. But that's just my opinion.

About the hematite spherules ("blueberries"), there might be places where they have been windblown in larger numbers against rocks. Most that have been seen so far seem to be in cracks between rocks or in depressions on the rocks. I don't know whether the spherules are located in certain areas of the planet or if they are widespread all over the surface of the planet. Curiosity has found hematite, but I'm not sure about spherules. Hematite spherules are thought to form in the pockets of porous rock having been moved by water through tiny cracks in the rock and deposited in the pockets. As has been mentioned, there is some thought with regard to meteor strikes. Maybe, but I think erosion over millions of years could do the same thing.
Martian "Blueberries" Really Pieces of Meteorites?

You mentioned winds, dust storms, and dust devils. While the winds on Mars don't reach hurricane strength, winds can reach up to around 60 mph. Average wind speed is probably around 20 mph. Hematite spherules seem to be pretty small - usually the size of a BB (for a BB gun) and smaller, but some are larger than that. With a wind speed of around 20 mph, that might be enough to move some of the blueberries around into cracks etc.
:: NASA Quest > Aerospace ::

Here's a photo of an interesting spherule that's about 1/2 inch wide. Golf, anyone?
Golfing on Mars? Curiosity Rover Can Provide a Hole (and the Balls) - NBC News
http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-ima...54E01_DXXX.jpg


Curiosity Finds Tantalizing Mineral Clues for Mars Habitability : Discovery News
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Old 09-02-2015, 02:56 PM
 
Location: north bama
2,328 posts, read 251 times
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(1) there are those that say .

(2) some say .

(3) there are those that believe .

( 4) it has been said that .

(5 ) speculations are that .

( 6) indications are that .

(7) could it be that .

( 8 ) it could be that .

(9) some believe .

as much as i love the " Ancient Aliens " programs they sure are not sure of themselves very much .. every comment that is of a speculative nature starts with one of the phrases i have listed above .. there are many others i cant think of just now .. i will have to wait till the next episode ....is there microscopic life on mars ? probably .....
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Old 09-02-2015, 07:47 PM
 
Location: PRC
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Night Bazaar
Quote:
Are there plants on Mars? Maybe, but I'm not convinced based on what you've shown. Just because something resembles a "living stone", doesn't automatically mean it's a fungi. It does kind of resemble a living stone plant though. A living stone plant is a succulent related to ice plants. Even if it's not a plant, it's still very interesting. The other object is, I assume, what appears to be an elongated tubular-shaped object with an indentation on the end...
The end of the 'tube' matches the indentations in many of the spherules, have you noticed that?

It is difficult to imagine what evidence anyone would need to supply for folks to accept there was something on Mars which is not as science says it should be. Remember, as far as I am aware, we have not had anyone from NASA saying that many (not all) 'blueberries' are in fact plant life, so this would be fairly difficult for them to admit now they have gone down that spherules = hematite concretions or volcanic route. Yes, I know that science is not exact, and they make mistakes as everyone does. However, they have access to far better data, software, and personnel than we do, so if anyone can determine if there is life on Mars, it should be them.

Night Bazaar, this is why I asked what it would take to convice us all there was plant life on Mars. It seems only an official statement would convince you?

Somehow, for a lot of people I do not think anything is going to be enough, other than that official statement from NASA or some other space agency. So, it may be however much evidence there is in the images, nothing will do to convince the 'Science is King' people.

Of course, I can understand, if someone has been trained as a scientist or has done a university degree in science, only other scientists who we rate as an 'authority' on the matter will sway opinion and change minds. The same in any industry. I can only present my 'evidence' and hope it is better than other 'evidence' which has been presented previously.

In the meantime, NASA continue to speculate whether MICROBIAL life EVER EXISTED (in the past). However, we are discussing CURRENT MULTICELLULAR plant life on Mars in this thread. They do maintain there is no current life on mars but they are still looking.

The question in my mind is "How hard are they looking?". I believe they have already found it.

This website gives photgraphs as evidence for fossilised past life on Mars, so it seems that photographic evidence is OK to be used as evidence of past life but not current life. The difference I suppose is that they have the meteorite here on Earth which can be examined by other scientists, whereas for the MER/MSL images we only have the rover on Mars.

Old Guard
And if I make statements which assume I know, then that is wrong too, so I am not even going to discuss that any longer. I am not discussing credentials either. Take it or leave it, I dont care and I am not getting sidetracked.


======================
This is a discussion, and science believes it knows, so who am I to do more than speculate and suggest when so many people follow and take the opinion of scientists as the absolute truth?

Oh well, I will find more evidence and post it for your comments. Keep 'em coming.
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Old 09-03-2015, 03:18 AM
 
Location: PRC
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These cuts are all taken from this image at the Exploratorium

Now here we have baby spherules, young ones. Centre bottom and centre top they are 'growing' out of holes in either other blueberries or a porus kind of rock (see my cacti theory at the bottom of this post) . It would suggest they are not concretions but things which are grown/made all the time, not just from a wet environment as we are told hematite concretions are.


If you zoom in close to the middle left of the composite picture, it appears as if some of the new spherules are expanding from inside old ones, splitting the old ones in half using the old cases as protection. You can see what is perhaps the bottom half of the old one as 'petals' around the underside of the right hand growing spherule.



This cut shows something coming out of the ground bang in the centre of the image below, what it is you will have to decide for yourselves. Maybe you just decide not to think about it at all, but denying it is not going to make it go away.



This cut taken from upper right of the original shows a group or mother plant where more than one may be growing out of the same place. As well as the more mature spherule towards the bottom of the cut, there is also a bud growing roughly North-West at the top and two other stalk/buds in the centre in the shadow on the left.


==================================
Having looked at hundreds of these things, I suspect what is happening is that the mature spherule is drying out and shrinking and starts to lose its shape. It decays and dessicates gradually and new plants grow out of the old or else it splits open and spores come out. However, I have not observed any spores coming out of mature spherules so I wonder if they are more like cacti than fungus, so maybe a type of succulent.

Last edited by ocpaul20; 09-03-2015 at 03:21 AM.. Reason: clarity
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Old 09-03-2015, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,168 posts, read 3,618,604 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Old Guard
And if I make statements which assume I know, then that is wrong too, so I am not even going to discuss that any longer. I am not discussing credentials either. Take it or leave it, I dont care and I am not getting sidetracked.
I do not think it is asking too much to provide a few quotes from modern scientists stating that there is no life on Mars as you stated and than reaffirmed when questioned. I linked a NASA article stating they are looking for life on Mars.

The problem is not that people take scientists as absolute gospel, the problem is that you are all over the place. You accuse them of not knowing something you can prove by pictures, you accuse them of being liars and covering it up when they are the ones that provide you your photographic "proof", you make broad absolute statements that you will not backup or discuss and then the kicker is that you make statements on how things are but refuse to give us some of your credentials so that we can weigh your opinion over the many scientists that have been seeking this answer for decades.

Personally this is the problem I have with Ancient Aliens for example, fast with the assumptions, making broad claims, slow with the facts and questioning the credentials and motives of other people while dismissing any discussion of theirs.

Good luck trying to prove there is life on Mars based on just your pictures and without opening yourself up to peer review LIKE A SCIENTIST.
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Old 09-03-2015, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,795 posts, read 4,514,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
These cuts are all taken from this image at the Exploratorium

Now here we have baby spherules, young ones. Centre bottom and centre top they are 'growing' out of holes in either other blueberries or a porus kind of rock (see my cacti theory at the bottom of this post) . It would suggest they are not concretions but things which are grown/made all the time, not just from a wet environment as we are told hematite concretions are. ...
None of these photos suggest to me anything other than non-organic concretions, some fully eroded from the matrix they're in, others only partially eroded. It looks to me like you're reading into them what you'd like to see.

You can't determine that something is actively growing from a static image, and you can't determine that something you see in an image is organic rather than an inorganic form that just looks organic without going up to it, examining it and analyzing samples. That's why the rovers find interesting things, then other tools like lasers and drills are used to analyze those interesting things. Rovers to date have mostly focused on geological analysis, fleshing out the geological and hydrological history of Mars, rather than looking for organic material. The rovers have not been equipped to do an exhaustive search for organics, and it's likely that wouldn't be successful until we send probes that can look under the surface, in caves and in the soil. The presence of perchlorates and radiation on the surface make it an extremely hostile environment for life.

Science would have absolutely no problem saying there's currently life on Mars -- if the evidence was compelling enough. When the potential microbial mat evidence I posted was first observed, there was discussion over whether it might show either current or fossil evidence of organic material holding the soil together. It's much more interesting from the point of science than all these blueberry pictures, because it shows material responding in a way that suggests its being held together by some unknown material or force. At this point, all it is is a static picture showing material worthy of further investigation. No one will know what is on Mars until some of the places visited by rovers are visited by human researchers, or there's a robotic sample return mission. What scientists do say is, life on the surface is highly unlikely given what we've learned about conditions there. But a lot of the evidence of extremophiles on earth in recent decades suggest life is more adaptable than we imagined.

A number of people in this forum want to attribute negative motives to scientists, who are for some reason obstructing the "truth" or engaging in some shadowy government conspiracy. If I were an astrobiologist, proving there is life on another planet would make my career, ensure tenure, and probably earn me a Nobel prize. Why would he/she run away from the possibility of fame and fortune? That's why we're spending so much time and money investigating Mars. There is no conspiracy, just a lot of pictures that may be interesting but do not provide sufficient evidence to say, yeah, there's definitely life there.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
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I really doubt any scientist would say "There is no plant life on Mars" although most would say "No verifiable
proof of any has been found"

for myself if I were to go to the produce section of Wal-Mart and see vegetables labelled "Produce of Mars" I would accept that as proff of plant life on Mars. On the other hand I am quite certain that there is some form of plant life on Mars, we just have not found it yet.
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Old 09-03-2015, 10:19 AM
 
Location: PRC
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There is nothing I can do to persuade anyone that plant life exists on Mars. Folks reading the thread will have to make up their own mind and decide for themselves whether I am the dellusional one or you are for not being able to admit this needs to have a proper investigation.

No matter what you say about Nobel Prizes, in myopinion and experience, scientists who have a good salary and a good pension are not going to risk being wrong until they are sure they are at least likely to be correct. They are also unlikely to talk to colleagues about controversial issues if it does not have the approval of the organisation. They have probably learned early in their careers that you do not rock the boat as it gets pretty chilly when you are out-of-favour for voicing things which should be kept quiet.

Ok, so I will post two last examples of spherules on stalks which are not great examples, but nonetheless still show both stalk and spherule joined together.



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Old 09-03-2015, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,511 posts, read 14,625,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
There is nothing I can do to persuade anyone that plant life exists on Mars. Folks reading the thread will have to make up their own mind and decide for themselves whether I am the dellusional one or you are for not being able to admit this needs to have a proper investigation.

No matter what you say about Nobel Prizes, in myopinion and experience, scientists who have a good salary and a good pension are not going to risk being wrong until they are sure they are at least likely to be correct. They are also unlikely to talk to colleagues about controversial issues if it does not have the approval of the organisation. They have probably learned early in their careers that you do not rock the boat as it gets pretty chilly when you are out-of-favour for voicing things which should be kept quiet.

Ok, so I will post two last examples of spherules on stalks which are not great examples, but nonetheless still show both stalk and spherule joined together.


While they could be considered evidence, they are not proof. they could be mineral formations that are not found on earth. Photo's are evidence, not verifiable proof unless we have the actual object in our possession to examine.


Some very plant looking mineral formations we have on earth

http://www.satyacenter.com/store/cry...s/6040?print=1

Cave Formations (Speleothems) - Geology of Limestone Caves - About - Jenolan Caves

Properties and Uses of Gypsum
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