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Old 10-04-2016, 09:21 PM
 
Location: PRC
2,962 posts, read 3,218,971 times
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Quote:
I've been researching this stuff for 3 years now--afterlife, NDE's, deathbed visions, spirits, OBE's, ghost boxes--the whole nine yards and I've yet to come across a piece of evidence that is 100% reliable. Is there any?
Another proof-searcher. You have been wasting three years of your time.

Ok, so what proof would be good enough for you?

If you were going to be a believer you would have convinced yourself by now so I guess you just want the others who dont believe to validate you. Well, there are quite a few who want proof similar to yourself so just be content that you are someone who describes themselves as open to new ideas, looking for proof, wanting to believe, etc but never actually making the leap of faith.

Of course, thats OK to be one of those people as long as you do not expect to judge what CANNOT be measured the same way as you do something which CAN be measured.

What I say may sound harsh, but it all depends on belief unfortunately. I feel that our brain is a receiver of energies, like a radio receiver. Some people can receive these energies and interpret them and others cannot. Much to my sadness, I dont seem to be able to receive and interpret these energies as I would like to. However, there are many people who can and who am I to disbelieve them if they say they can see or hear or whatever?

I recommend investigating Out of Body journeys and learning how to do it as I feel this is a way that 'ordinary' people can learn what happens in other dimensions.

 
Old 10-04-2016, 10:29 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Another proof-searcher. You have been wasting three years of your time.

Ok, so what proof would be good enough for you?

If you were going to be a believer you would have convinced yourself by now so I guess you just want the others who dont believe to validate you. Well, there are quite a few who want proof similar to yourself so just be content that you are someone who describes themselves as open to new ideas, looking for proof, wanting to believe, etc but never actually making the leap of faith.

Of course, thats OK to be one of those people as long as you do not expect to judge what CANNOT be measured the same way as you do something which CAN be measured.

What I say may sound harsh, but it all depends on belief unfortunately. I feel that our brain is a receiver of energies, like a radio receiver. Some people can receive these energies and interpret them and others cannot. Much to my sadness, I dont seem to be able to receive and interpret these energies as I would like to. However, there are many people who can and who am I to disbelieve them if they say they can see or hear or whatever?

I recommend investigating Out of Body journeys and learning how to do it as I feel this is a way that 'ordinary' people can learn what happens in other dimensions.
I be content just to have a spirit sighting or two of a relative. Is that too much to ask? They seem to happen to everybody except me. I have no reason to think Ruth or Miss Hepburn are deceiving us so I believe them when they say they have had such experiences. I feel like Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof: "Lord, would it spoil some vast eternal plan if I saw one spirit, maybe two!"

If I Saw A Spirit (from Fiddler on the Roof)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHZFYpQ6nc
 
Old 10-05-2016, 01:23 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,876,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Re NDE's what puzzles me about them is how some float to the top of the ceiling, then go down the hospital hall and see loved ones grieving, then go out the door and fly around some more to nearby locations, like George Ritchie who flew some 500 miles across Texas to Louisiana and stopped in a small town in front of a diner. He says has he stood on the sidewalk asking people who walked by where he was and they ignored him, obviously because they couldn't see him. It was when he put his hand through a telephone anchor wire that he realized something was amiss.

But then there are others who say they immediately go flying down a dark tunnel with the characteristic light at the end.

So why does one hang around while another goes down the tunnel?

I've known two ppl personally who had NDEs;
one with tunnel and light who later wrote a book; the other floating out of body, she recalls watching medical staff and thought the code was for the guy in the other bed until she saw one of the nurses standing over her with defibrillator paddles.

From experience with communication, there's no doubt in my mind spirit leaves the body after death while awareness in the physical realm remains, but I question the differences in NDEs as well.

I'm skeptical on tunnel and light stories; I'm not saying they'r fabricated, but wonder if it comes from mental storage of what they've previously heard about or read.

Last edited by virgode; 10-05-2016 at 01:35 AM..
 
Old 10-05-2016, 01:34 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,512 posts, read 70,430,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I be content just to have a spirit sighting or two of a relative. Is that too much to ask? They seem to happen to everybody except me. I have no reason to think Ruth or Miss Hepburn are deceiving us so I believe them when they say they have had such experiences. I feel like Tevya in Fiddler on the Roof: "Lord, would it spoil some vast eternal plan if I saw one spirit, maybe two!"

If I Saw A Spirit (from Fiddler on the Roof)
No, they don't happen to everyone but you. First of all, I didn't say I had such an experience, I said a friend of mine did. And I believe her because she was always so science-oriented, and woo-is-flakiness oriented. She was very reluctant to admit to anyone that her mother had appeared to her.

I think some people can "see" the deceased--or at least, their own loved ones--and others can't. I've never seen or heard or smelled anyone on the "other side". But I recognize some stories as having the ring of truth. And with the NDE stories, I've been a little reluctant to buy into the whole ball of wax, because I've always been an atheist, but I think the stories are very interesting, and with so many people seemingly on the same or similar page with those narratives, one really wonders. Besides, I think the description of the Divine as a giant ball of light/energy is pretty cool. It beats the bearded guy in the sky image.

So, whatever. Keep exploring, and don't worry about proof. Enjoy the exploration, and evaluate as you go along. Then in another few years, see how you feel about it at that point. It's a work in progress. There's no way to prove it scientifically. Yet. Someday, there may be. Like gravity, the planets orbiting around the sun vs. the sun orbiting us, etc. Patience. All in good time.
 
Old 10-05-2016, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Maine
16,453 posts, read 20,746,153 times
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"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Shakespeare)

I am equally suspicious of two camps: Those who are eager to believe every froo froo claim that comes up the pike. And those who are absolutely sure of everything when it comes to dismissing claims of the supernatural.

Be skeptical. But keep an open mind.
 
Old 10-05-2016, 12:17 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
I'm skeptical on tunnel and light stories; I'm not saying they'r fabricated, but wonder if it comes from mental storage of what they've previously heard about or read.
Unless they've been reading NDE stories, they wouldn't have heard or read anything about a Light. Spiritual scriptures (Christian, Hindu, Buddhist) don't mention a Light, and plenty of NDE-ers have been atheists/agnostics who have never read scripture. Some deeply religious people say "Jesus came to me", but others say, "I saw a bright Light, and realized it was Jesus". Others say that the Light was "love".
 
Old 10-05-2016, 01:28 PM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,085 posts, read 23,876,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Unless they've been reading NDE stories, they wouldn't have heard or read anything about a Light. Spiritual scriptures (Christian, Hindu, Buddhist) don't mention a Light, and plenty of NDE-ers have been atheists/agnostics who have never read scripture. Some deeply religious people say "Jesus came to me", but others say, "I saw a bright Light, and realized it was Jesus". Others say that the Light was "love".
Yeah...Whats your opin on the difference in NDEs though? Agree with your post science will one day know.
 
Old 10-05-2016, 01:43 PM
 
11,225 posts, read 11,251,267 times
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Drawing on statements from all four posts since my last one:

Quote:
I'm skeptical on tunnel and light stories; I'm not saying they're fabricated, but wonder if it comes from mental storage of what they've previously heard about or read.
I approach each story I hear skeptically but with an open mind as Ruth wisely advises. I check the person's background. Dannion Brinkley is an out-and-out liar and a fraud; that has been proven so into the trash his goes; likewise Mellon-Thomas Benedict. The thing is most of these NDE's involve a tunnel; in fact the tunnel and the light at the end is probably the most defining aspect of an NDE. Why am I concerned? I don't particularly like the idea of flying down a tunnel at warp speed. For me just going unconscious and then waking up to a new environment would do me just fine. But I have this curiosity about why these NDE's seem to mimic the birth process: tunnel = vaginal canal; light at end = emerging into a new world.

Quote:
Then in another few years, see how you feel about it at that point.
Yeah, but I'm running out of time. And I think religious bent plays a large part. For atheists it's a much easier task as I think they just accept they will disappear at death, and I'm trying to wrap my brain around this idea of just disappearing as it figures more and more into my "plans" for what lies ahead for me. But as an agnostic deist I'm trying to make some sense out of the discrepancies in all these experiences I'm reading because I like things to be uniform. If they are not uniform I try to find uniform-ness in the un-uniformity. Does that make sense? And so far it's not working.

Quote:
Be skeptical. But keep an open mind.
Yeah, like Ruth advises. I may be looking for answers where there are none. Why don't we all get a tunnel? Why don't we all get an OBE. And the biggest question of all: why do these NDE's only happen to about 20% of people who clinically die? If we all have spirits then why doesn't everyone who clinically dies have one of these? Doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

Quote:
Spiritual scriptures (Christian, Hindu, Buddhist) don't mention a Light, and plenty of NDE-ers have been atheists/agnostics who have never read scripture.

In foreign countries an NDE seems to be structured differently. In India it's nearly always a yamdoot who brings the wrong soul and a clerk at a desk scribbling in a book tells the yamdoot, "Idiot! You brought the wrong one!" Whereupon the soul is brought back to his body, Figure that one out.
 
Old 10-05-2016, 02:51 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,512 posts, read 70,430,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
In foreign countries an NDE seems to be structured differently. In India it's nearly always a yamdoot who brings the wrong soul and a clerk at a desk scribbling in a book tells the yamdoot, "Idiot! You brought the wrong one!" Whereupon the soul is brought back to his body, Figure that one out.
Haha, well, those Indians, they love their bureaucracy, you know!

I haven't heard/read that one. There's a website that has pages and pages of NDE stories, including ones from cultures around the world. One Muslim woman had an NDE that didn't advance very far, but I think she had the OBE, and may have seen the opening to a tunnel, I don't recall. But it didn't last long, so there wasn't time for it to develop beyond something rudimentary. I've read that Buddhists tend to see the Buddha. It seems that people project their Religious-Figure-of-Choice onto the Light, if they're religious.

Atheists assume they're just going to "disappear" and disintegrate into dust over time, but some have NDE's, and that really gives them food for thought.

So, Danion Brinkley is a fraud, you say? How was this determined? What did he do, read a bunch of NDE books, and then write his own from basically plagiarized elements?

Where do you live, OP? On the W Coast, by any chance?
 
Old 10-05-2016, 03:04 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
78,512 posts, read 70,430,585 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
Yeah...Whats your opin on the difference in NDEs though? Agree with your post science will one day know.
Well, I don't see a difference in them, as I explained earlier. What I see is that there's a phenomenon that has numerous elements that in some cases are experienced in a progression; some people have the "full" experience, but most people only have some elements of the total experience. So, some people may suddenly find themselves in a heavenly garden, nothing more. They're "called back" or "sent back" shortly. Many people have the OBE, and while they're moving around in that state, they encounter a tunnel. If their experience doesn't end abruptly at that point, they go through the tunnel. Deceased loved ones may or may not be welcoming them into the tunnel. If their experience isn't cut short in the tunnel, they'll progress to a Light, or will at least glimpse a Light. At that point their experience may be all about the Light and its qualities or a message it communicates to them, or from there, they may progress to a garden. Alternatively, some may spend their time visiting with one or more loved ones, and receiving a message from them, and perhaps experiencing a sense of bliss about the place they're at, whatever it is, with or without seeing a Light.

Natalie Sudman's experience was unique in that she found herself at one point (after tunnel, garden, Light, life review) in a big sort of hall or auditorium surrounded by spiritual beings. The expectation there seemed to be that she would "download" her Earthly experience for them to learn from or examine. She found that she could move instantly at will between the Garden, the auditorium, and other scenes/environments. At a blink, is how she expressed it. (She was blown up by a roadside bomb while in a jeep in Iraq.)https://www.amazon.com/Application-I...Natalie+Sudman A few people do encounter other spiritual beings, and experience a learning realm and future lifetime-planning episode.

A few people have scary NDE's, with demons menacing them. Universally, they all escape this by reciting a prayer or Jesus' name, or some such; in other words, by using spirituality as a resource. A few proceed from there to the tunnel, etc., others revive straight from that "hell realm". Some of the people who get the hell realm are people who haven't been good people during their short lifetime, but others get it seemingly at random. There's no explanation as to why some have that experience vs. the bliss realm.

OP, have you read nurse Kimberly Clark's books? I attended a lecture she gave once, a long time ago. That was my introduction to the NDE phenom. She gets into some wild stuff in her books, but I don't think she's making it up. For that matter, Raymond Moody got into some interesting experiments and experiences later in his career, too, using binaural beats to induce a trance or OBE state. What do you make of all that?

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-05-2016 at 03:52 PM..
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