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Old 06-28-2019, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,628 posts, read 3,694,680 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prhill View Post
Yeah Bully for me and for others that now are as I am as they have happiness now and that is important to me as it should be for everyone. Do you have any idea how good it feels to see friends and family and coworkers now feeling joy in their lives? It is the greatest felling and life should be filled with joy because its all we have
Because you think those of us who are believers in the supernatural or some sort of afterlife are unhappy? I know how good it feels to see friends and family and coworkers feeling joy in their lives - and I see it in the context of a faith community where people care for each other - in the good times as well as the bad times. I was not happy or content for the 25 years I spent as an agnostic (or at times, an atheist). I don't know what personal experiences led you to your constant proselytizing for atheism, but I've been there, done that, and have no desire to go back to that sort of grim unbelief after my long and difficult spiritual struggle. I continue with the struggle - in Orthodoxy, participation in the community is an opportunity to grow together, to laugh and weep together - to greet new life and say farewell for those who have left this life. It is a spiritual hospital where we all seek healing together. For me, my choice was a matter of my personal experiences - and like Kierkegaard, I came to a point where I had to take that leap of faith into the abyss in the hope that there was someone there. For those of us who have made that leap, your saying over and over again "there is no God" and "there is no afterlife" falls on deaf ears. So again, I see no point in your constantly hammering that point in a forum where many of us have a belief in something beyond the ceaseless banging of molecules that comprise the physical. If that as we used to say is your trip and it brings you joy, more power to you. Chacun a son gout.

 
Old 06-28-2019, 07:11 PM
 
1,025 posts, read 466,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Because you think those of us who are believers in the supernatural or some sort of afterlife are unhappy? I know how good it feels to see friends and family and coworkers feeling joy in their lives - and I see it in the context of a faith community where people care for each other - in the good times as well as the bad times. I was not happy or content for the 25 years I spent as an agnostic (or at times, an atheist). I don't know what personal experiences led you to your constant proselytizing for atheism, but I've been there, done that, and have no desire to go back to that sort of grim unbelief after my long and difficult spiritual struggle. I continue with the struggle - in Orthodoxy, participation in the community is an opportunity to grow together, to laugh and weep together - to greet new life and say farewell for those who have left this life. It is a spiritual hospital where we all seek healing together. For me, my choice was a matter of my personal experiences - and like Kierkegaard, I came to a point where I had to take that leap of faith into the abyss in the hope that there was someone there. For those of us who have made that leap, your saying over and over again "there is no God" and "there is no afterlife" falls on deaf ears. So again, I see no point in your constantly hammering that point in a forum where many of us have a belief in something beyond the ceaseless banging of molecules that comprise the physical. If that as we used to say is your trip and it brings you joy, more power to you. Chacun a son gout.

Yes as I said I have dozens of friends, family and coworkers who were once believers and ever since they got out they have told me so many times how I could never understand all the guilt and shame and fear and other things they had and how now they feel they can breathe and and feel free and finally have happiness in their lives. And on top of all of them saying that I have since read or listened to endless other famous atheists who were once believers all say the same things including many people who were once priests
 
Old 06-28-2019, 07:49 PM
 
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We’re going far afield of the topic...please drag it back.
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Solly says Be nice!
 
Old 06-29-2019, 01:40 AM
 
Location: PRC
2,962 posts, read 3,218,971 times
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For me, I just wonder how much people want to find out whether there is an afterlife. For example, possibly it is easier and safer to discuss the topic rather than to investigate it, and if folks believe they are talking to demons and evil things, then they will never go down that path to find out anything more than they are told exists.

If I wanted to stop someone investigating something, then I would tell them one version - my version and I would build fear so they did not want to investigate alternatives to my version.

What I am saying is that there is evidence but it lies in that slightly borderland area between some religious beliefs and so-called occult beliefs, ghost hunting, paranormal investigations, out-of-body travel, and the techniques and practices which produce these phenomena. So I do not know how to open up the subject for those people who are severely limited by their belief systems.

If, what your belief systems tells you, is not good enough then you have to have the courage (or stupidity?) to venture into the fringes to find out what else there is which might give you some peace or some answers.
 
Old 06-29-2019, 06:06 AM
 
1,025 posts, read 466,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
For me, I just wonder how much people want to find out whether there is an afterlife. For example, possibly it is easier and safer to discuss the topic rather than to investigate it, and if folks believe they are talking to demons and evil things, then they will never go down that path to find out anything more than they are told exists.

If I wanted to stop someone investigating something, then I would tell them one version - my version and I would build fear so they did not want to investigate alternatives to my version.

What I am saying is that there is evidence but it lies in that slightly borderland area between some religious beliefs and so-called occult beliefs, ghost hunting, paranormal investigations, out-of-body travel, and the techniques and practices which produce these phenomena. So I do not know how to open up the subject for those people who are severely limited by their belief systems.

If, what your belief systems tells you, is not good enough then you have to have the courage (or stupidity?) to venture into the fringes to find out what else there is which might give you some peace or some answers.

If there was an after life dont you think it would be obvious especially after all these years? Why has there been no evidence at all in all these centurys? Why dont musicians still make music if they still exist somewhere? Why dont all of our dead loved ones or anyone in generally come and say hey guess what we are still alive? I used to think there might be something after this but after decades of experimenting and researching it finally became so obvious that this like so many other endless other things is just more man made stuff. And now I love and appreciate life so much more because of that.

On top of all of that science has found here is no way for our consciousnesses to exist outside of a physical brain so once the brain dies so does everything we are.

Last edited by prhill; 06-29-2019 at 06:46 AM..
 
Old 06-29-2019, 07:19 AM
 
Location: PRC
2,962 posts, read 3,218,971 times
Reputation: 2743
The afterlife IS obvious to folks who believe in it. However, it is like everything else we cannot prove - proof has to be an individual knowing since science is not advanced enough with enough sensitive measuring instruments to prove it to the scientists.

Only by doing the various techniques will anyone have a chance at finding out for themselves, and even then, those techniques dont work for everyone. But, there are plenty of books and reports from those whose techniques did work.

I just dont think many religious people want to read Alistaire Crowley or other occult historical literature.

Oh, and some out-of-body travellers say they meet 'dead' people too.
 
Old 06-29-2019, 07:30 AM
 
1,025 posts, read 466,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
The afterlife IS obvious to folks who believe in it. However, it is like everything else we cannot prove - proof has to be an individual knowing since science is not advanced enough with enough sensitive measuring instruments to prove it to the scientists.

Only by doing the various techniques will anyone have a chance at finding out for themselves, and even then, those techniques dont work for everyone. But, there are plenty of books and reports from those whose techniques did work.

I just dont think many religious people want to read Alistaire Crowley or other occult historical literature.

Oh, and some out-of-body travellers say they meet 'dead' people too.
True people believe in many things but belief does not make it true. I can believe I will have million of dollars next week but that wont make it true as nice as that would be. And that still does not address all the other points I have made.

And this is why belief in things like this is going away at such a rapid rate

Last edited by prhill; 06-29-2019 at 07:39 AM..
 
Old 06-29-2019, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,628 posts, read 3,694,680 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by prhill View Post
On top of all of that science has found here is no way for our consciousnesses to exist outside of a physical brain so once the brain dies so does everything we are.
Science has "found" no such thing. Scientists who adhere to the philosophical position of scientism (and not all of them do) - that empirical science is the only valid world view, the only valid way to explain the world - hold this belief based on their assumptions about how the world works. They are not doing so because of any data they possess or experiments they've conducted. It's an opinion - just like the belief that something of what we are survives independent of our physical bodies. One might say it's a matter of faith - a faith in the validity of a reductionist view of reality, that if you describe something's parts you know everything of value about it.

We can't even define what consciousness is, have no idea how it arises or how it's maintained, whether it's some sort of property peculiar to mammalian and avian brains, whether it's an intrinsic property of the universe so everything is in some sense conscious, a property that emerges from systems of high complexity, or is somehow dependent on the peculiar electro-chemical and physical structures of our brain circuitry. Further, we have no idea why we perceive time as "passing", or whether that perception is also related to our consciousness. And the question of persistence after death is related to the nature of time and its passage.

Quote:
... The usual methods of science involve explanation of functional, dynamical, and structural properties—explanation of what a thing does, how it changes over time, and how it is put together. But even after we have explained the functional, dynamical, and structural properties of the conscious mind, we can still meaningfully ask the question, Why is it conscious? This suggests that an explanation of consciousness will have to go beyond the usual methods of science. Consciousness therefore presents a hard problem for science, or perhaps it marks the limits of what science can explain.
Source: https://www.iep.utm.edu/hard-con/

Many years ago, author and noted humanist Gore Vidal published an essay in the Nation in which he said that the notion of human love and affection was just the product of chemicals in the brain, and had no intrinsic value or meaning in and of itself. It struck me at the time that this is absurd - much of what is of value to us as human beings, and that is responsible for whatever is good and noble in our natures - music, art, self sacrifice, the desire to understand what we are and where we are going, the ability to transcend our baser natures - cannot be reduced to chemical reactions. To do so as Vidal did is a form of blindness - a refusal to truly see what we are, and what we are capable of.
 
Old 06-29-2019, 10:42 AM
 
1,025 posts, read 466,700 times
Reputation: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Science has "found" no such thing. Scientists who adhere to the philosophical position of scientism (and not all of them do) - that empirical science is the only valid world view, the only valid way to explain the world - hold this belief based on their assumptions about how the world works. They are not doing so because of any data they possess or experiments they've conducted. It's an opinion - just like the belief that something of what we are survives independent of our physical bodies. One might say it's a matter of faith - a faith in the validity of a reductionist view of reality, that if you describe something's parts you know everything of value about it.

We can't even define what consciousness is, have no idea how it arises or how it's maintained, whether it's some sort of property peculiar to mammalian and avian brains, whether it's an intrinsic property of the universe so everything is in some sense conscious, a property that emerges from systems of high complexity, or is somehow dependent on the peculiar electro-chemical and physical structures of our brain circuitry. Further, we have no idea why we perceive time as "passing", or whether that perception is also related to our consciousness. And the question of persistence after death is related to the nature of time and its passage.

Source: https://www.iep.utm.edu/hard-con/

Many years ago, author and noted humanist Gore Vidal published an essay in the Nation in which he said that the notion of human love and affection was just the product of chemicals in the brain, and had no intrinsic value or meaning in and of itself. It struck me at the time that this is absurd - much of what is of value to us as human beings, and that is responsible for whatever is good and noble in our natures - music, art, self sacrifice, the desire to understand what we are and where we are going, the ability to transcend our baser natures - cannot be reduced to chemical reactions. To do so as Vidal did is a form of blindness - a refusal to truly see what we are, and what we are capable of.
You still have not addressed why in all these centurys there has not been any proof at all for anything spiritual or why they dont come and show us they are still alive or why musicians still dont make music and why artists still dont make art and so on and so on?

At this point All ideas of an after life are simply man made ideas with no reason at all to believe in any of it. Which is why people have so many different versions of it because its stuff they are creating. Which again is why belief in these things is going away so quickly these days

Last edited by prhill; 06-29-2019 at 10:52 AM..
 
Old 06-29-2019, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,628 posts, read 3,694,680 times
Reputation: 8613
Quote:
Originally Posted by prhill View Post
You still have not addressed why in all these centurys there has not been any proof at all for anything spiritual
Prove that Beethoven's symphonies are beautiful. Prove that Claude Monet's paintings are beautiful. Prove that T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land is beautiful. Tell me why the appreciation of beauty is part of being human when it has no survival value. Prove that a parent loves his child, and the child loves its parent. Tell me why all of these things make us weep with joy or sadness. A lot of what it means to be human and what makes our lives meaningful have nothing at all to do with proof - they are in fact spiritual in nature - demanding proof for any of them is absurd.

Quote:
or why they dont come and show us they are still alive or why musicians still dont make music and why artists still dont make art and so on and so on?
You're assuming a lot about the dead and coming up with your own rules about what interaction with the living should look like - and if the dead cannot or choose not to "show us" they're still alive, how do you know we don't have music and art or something like them in the next life?

Quote:
At this point All ideas of an after life are simply man made ideas with no reason at all to believe in any of it. Which is why people have so many different versions of it because its stuff they are creating. Which again is why belief in these things is going away so quickly these days
Or fewer people believe because it's more convenient to believe there isn't a God or an afterlife than it is to believe something is required of them.
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