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Old 01-23-2017, 09:21 PM
 
Location: PRC
2,710 posts, read 2,990,159 times
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As I have already stated, the article makes the point that the plates on the back of this carving were not 'discovered' on fossils of the dinosaur until quite recently and so EITHER the carving is a fake (no evidence at the site for this), OR it is a stylised something-else OR it is done from a sighting of the real thing (otherweise they would not know about the plates along its back). It seems the possibility of it being a fake is unlikely as the stone block has not been disturbed and is the same as the surrounding ones.

IF it is a stylised someing-else, then I would point out the other carvings do not have similar stylised features such as plates along the back added by the carvers so why would this one? Maybe those who believe it is a stylised carving could point out other stylised features in the other carvings which would add weight to your argument.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:41 PM
 
5,192 posts, read 3,013,296 times
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It's an interesting mystery. No one who is Christian should be too uncomfortable with mysteries, right?


Some people need to take everything literally. Others understand the use of metaphors. Still others can be comfortable with cognitive dissonance. That's not such a bad stance to take considering the world, its history and the spiritual life are full of contradictions that we may never rectify.


I truly understand crises of faith but does anyone's faith really hinge on this single issue? Doesn't faith depend upon trusting in what one cannot prove?


You may want to be selective in what you have faith about but it seems to me that for Christians who need to take the Bible literally faith would solve their problem.


Thanks, Vasily, for the good reading references. Reading about Darwin and the controversies he initiated is an interesting topic.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:09 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
13,340 posts, read 10,921,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
It's an interesting mystery. No one who is Christian should be too uncomfortable with mysteries, right?


Some people need to take everything literally. Others understand the use of metaphors. Still others can be comfortable with cognitive dissonance. That's not such a bad stance to take considering the world, its history and the spiritual life are full of contradictions that we may never rectify.


I truly understand crises of faith but does anyone's faith really hinge on this single issue? Doesn't faith depend upon trusting in what one cannot prove?


You may want to be selective in what you have faith about but it seems to me that for Christians who need to take the Bible literally faith would solve their problem.


Thanks, Vasily, for the good reading references. Reading about Darwin and the controversies he initiated is an interesting topic.

Good points. I am a Christian. However I don't tend to get into topics such as age of the Earth, locations of the Garden of Eden and such. I have an extreme distaste for dogma and absolutes. For me, Christians who speak in absolutes and cite dogma as fact weaken their position.


My awakening, as a Christian is Faith based. Studying Scripture and interpretation of it isn't a bad thing. However no single interpretation should be considered as being "right". My personal awakening is based in the belief that we don't know, nor can we answer all the questions surrounding our history. One of my main questions about Biblical history and the development of mankind revolved around the fossil record. Then, one fine day, as I sat pondering such questions, a "voice" flashed across my mind. It was a question to myself that aske do you really think you could understand the answers to these questions?


That's where things leave of for me. The realization that our very limited human minds don't have the capacity to state anything about the history of the Earth as fact. Because we can't even begin to understand how God thinks or works. I still ponder questions such as the ones this thread asks. I just don't pretend to believe I can answer them. I believe we will have the answers. But not in this life. And at that point , having those answers and understandings won't matter a whit. Faith.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:23 PM
Status: "More than chromosomes." (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Anderson, IN
4,073 posts, read 1,150,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flamingGalah! View Post
OP is trolling right? Seriously?
Sadly, no. Some people honestly believe this. See also, Ken Ham.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:06 PM
Status: "More than chromosomes." (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Anderson, IN
4,073 posts, read 1,150,560 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
Good points. I am a Christian. However I don't tend to get into topics such as age of the Earth, locations of the Garden of Eden and such. I have an extreme distaste for dogma and absolutes. For me, Christians who speak in absolutes and cite dogma as fact weaken their position.


My awakening, as a Christian is Faith based. Studying Scripture and interpretation of it isn't a bad thing. However no single interpretation should be considered as being "right". My personal awakening is based in the belief that we don't know, nor can we answer all the questions surrounding our history. One of my main questions about Biblical history and the development of mankind revolved around the fossil record. Then, one fine day, as I sat pondering such questions, a "voice" flashed across my mind. It was a question to myself that aske do you really think you could understand the answers to these questions?


That's where things leave of for me. The realization that our very limited human minds don't have the capacity to state anything about the history of the Earth as fact. Because we can't even begin to understand how God thinks or works. I still ponder questions such as the ones this thread asks. I just don't pretend to believe I can answer them. I believe we will have the answers. But not in this life. And at that point , having those answers and understandings won't matter a whit. Faith.

That's awesome, NV. That's where I am too. I don't need the answers. I don't want them, though the questions are fun to ask and ponder, but as you said, would we understand the answers if we had them? I don't think so either. I'm not certain about anything as far as this stuff goes, though I am pretty sure that evolution was, and is God's method of creation.

Often, over in the Christianity subforum, I've seen the question raised by Biblical inerrantists: "if the Bible isn't 100% literally true, how can we trust any of it?" And to my mind, the answer is so utterly simple. Faith.

I love what Anne Lamott wrote about it: I have a lot of faith. But I am also afraid a lot, and have no real certainty about anything. I remembered something Father Tom had told me--that the opposite of faith is not doubt, but certainty. Certainty is missing the point entirely. Faith includes noticing the mess, the emptiness and discomfort, and letting it be there until some light returns.

Apologies for meandering off topic.
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Old 01-24-2017, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,040 posts, read 3,276,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodestar View Post
It's an interesting mystery. No one who is Christian should be too uncomfortable with mysteries, right?

Some people need to take everything literally. Others understand the use of metaphors. Still others can be comfortable with cognitive dissonance. That's not such a bad stance to take considering the world, its history and the spiritual life are full of contradictions that we may never rectify.

I truly understand crises of faith but does anyone's faith really hinge on this single issue? Doesn't faith depend upon trusting in what one cannot prove?
I understand the fear behind biblical literalism: if Genesis is not taken to represent literal history (the argument goes), what about the Virgin Birth? The Resurrection? The fear is that it will all fall apart. Further, it became more difficult in Western Christianity for people to embrace mystery: in Eastern Orthodoxy, God "dwells in unapproachable darkness", but in the West the route to knowing God is through Reason (you can thank the Scholastics for that).

Fast forward centuries, and you have Protestants raised in a world where you reach God through study and words rather than through direct relationship ("Fear not, for I am with you; Be not dismayed, for I am your God." - Isaiah 41:10), who have a very hard time seeing that the scriptures can be understood in something other than as literal history -- and myth, far from being "not true", is connected to the truth. It's another way of knowing. Reality is iconic: everything points to everything else, and eventually back to God.

Hence, the frantic efforts on the part of Christian and other fundamentalists to "prove science wrong" by trying to use scientists' own language against them (you see this in many of the threads on this forum that deal with scientists' supposed refusal to consider paranormal claims seriously). The thought that the evolutionists might be right is terrifying to someone who can only see scripture through a literal lens. In truth, the evolutionists are right -- and scripture is right. It's just that it's a different kind of truth.

Quote:
Thanks, Vasily, for the good reading references. Reading about Darwin and the controversies he initiated is an interesting topic.
You're most welcome!
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:00 PM
 
Location: PRC
2,710 posts, read 2,990,159 times
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As we get nearer and nearer a time when we realise that life is no longer limited to what is on Earth, I wonder how it will be taken when it IS discovered. The Vatican has began to address this issue with allowing for aliens to be Gods creatures too, however the idea that God of the Bible IS an alien who made us in a test tube and planted us on Earth must be a fairly scary proposition to anyone from a faith-based religion.

What some people believe happened is that the earth is like a huge test region where life is seeded, grows and then dies - multiple times.
There is fossil and other evidence that the earth has undergone large changes in the past. Most of the humans have been wiped out and the "experiment" has started again. As an example, after one of these giant earth upheavals if only a small population was left or brought here to re-seed the Earth, then these stories and legends would be handed down from generation to generation. The Gardener would come along and move things about to distribute the "seedlings" evenly across his patch of Earth to give them room to grow, he would alter the environment to find out what effect it had on a particular evolutionary cycle and he may even bring along a beautiful plant or animal which had been doing particularly well in another test region he looks after.

Since I am not the kind of person who uses Faith to quell my fears, I cannot stop asking questions and I push to find the answers to my questions which are not satisfactorily explained to me. I do not understand the kind of person who takes an authority and runs with it because it provides a superficial solution. It does not matter if that authority is Science or Religion they are only seeking to control those who follow them without proper thought.

I dont think this should be a religion thread because there are anomalies like this in all kinds of places - particularly in ancient history and it is only because we cannot accept aliens into the equation that these anomalies are still rumbling around the academic and religious circles.
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