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Old 08-22-2017, 08:28 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,136 posts, read 1,979,745 times
Reputation: 5084

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
It may well be apocryphal, since I can't find a reference for it now, but years ago I read that in the talks after WWII, a Japanese official asked General MacArthur why no American General had ever tried to take his troops and seize power. MacArthur replied, "Because the nearest corporal would shoot him in the head." I sure hope that kind of honor and loyalty to country is still being instilled in our enlisted soldiers.

That is why when I hear of Trump wanting "loyalty oaths" and talking about "my military," it scares the jahoobies out of me.
I do not think it would be legal to shoot him in the head, and you may not wish to arrest him. But you could certainly go AWOL and report to the nearest "safe" camp and report it. Certainly there would not be much following of the order.

Also I am not here to denigrate nor support the President but I have not seen anything of Personal Oaths of Loyalty in regards to soldiers. This would be met with a barrage of resistance from our civilian and military leadership and I cannot see that could happen unless things went bat **** crazy. "My military" is a fine reference for a President, Citizen or Soldier. To me it is similar to "My Country", not technically correct but it is used in that way. Also the President IS the Commander in Chief. If the President ordered you to kill someone you would be able to disobey the order.

We have had discussions about this in regards to the football. If the President ordered a nuclear attack without cause the Aid could refuse. Of course he could be relieved of duty and possibly arrested but he would have his day in court. Once relieved of duty the next Aide may be faced with the same situation and may also decline to comply if there were serious questions regarding the integrity of the order or the mental state of the President.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:23 AM
 
427 posts, read 924,635 times
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There are many people who have tried to speak out about 9/11 but either nobody listens or people refuse to hear anything except what the Government tells/feeds them.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,136 posts, read 1,979,745 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNGal78 View Post
There are many people who have tried to speak out about 9/11 but either nobody listens or people refuse to hear anything except what the Government tells/feeds them.
To me there have been none that have been believable. People say that a missile hit the Pentagon and not a plane. Well that is an easy debunk for me since I pass the Pentagon almost daily and I saw the debris. I think people would listen and believe if they thought it were true.
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:42 PM
 
3,497 posts, read 991,705 times
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There is a bit of truth in SOME conspiracy theories - and also in the disputing of same.

Many who have studied covert ops have said that the Human Condition is such that once a lot (more than a handful) of people know about something, it will eventually come out.

But history sometimes shows otherwise...need I say that anyone who believes the Kennedys died in "lone wolf" attacks is probably wrong?

You can find 100% proof that many Americans have kept secrets until their graves...or until at least the graves or the people involved. For example, there was just a reported story on a large camp outside DC where the top Nazi scientists (Von Werner) were taken and wined and dined and even taken on tours of the US Capitol, etc - AFTER the war. No one knew what this camp was or what it was for. Many "regular" Army staff worked there - yet they never (until now - the files are declassified) mentioned it...even to their wives. This is true of literally 10's of thousands of Americans and Situations in the last 100 years.

I think one of the important things to remember is that there was zero pressure on those involved to "tell the stories" so it was fairly easy being "patriotic" and keeping it to yourself. It might be another story if the USA lost the war or if the people involved were jailed, tried, tortured, threatened, etc.

But, as it stands, I think a LOT of people - especially those chosen for "secret" jobs, will keep those secrets honorably (as long as the consequences are not deep).
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:51 PM
 
3,497 posts, read 991,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
To me there have been none that have been believable. People say that a missile hit the Pentagon and not a plane. Well that is an easy debunk for me since I pass the Pentagon almost daily and I saw the debris. I think people would listen and believe if they thought it were true.
Said missile somehow deposited landing gear inside the building envelope. Now that is a feat of engineering.

All this BS about aviation fuel (oil) not being able to melt steel.....is obviously only believed by those who don't make little backyard foundries which use fuel oil to melt iron. I made one myself, but only used aluminum so LP did the job.

I'm open to conspiracies and to coincidences (c'mon - George Bush brother in charge of WTC security? And an employee of him (his housekeeper) mysteriously dies in the driveway? That's an amazing coincidence)...but having them be based on facts as opposed to people who just parrot them would help.

9/11 is one of the ultimate examples of "more than one thing could be true". Let's, for instance, throw out the idea that SOME Israeli agents knew this was going to happen. IF this was the case, there is a very good chance they would not tell the US Government all they knew...because they wanted nothing more than having us all beat back the middle east threats to them. Note - I am not suggesting this is true....just that lots of things could be true and they still don't change the outcome.

Despite all the BS around it, I really do believe some Islamists flew planes into the towers. Now...as far as who didn't do anything about it beforehand, that's another story.

The USA is a strange place. We have largely succumbed to being manipulated by corporations and the rest of the world because we cannot agree on anything - therefore chaos is the name of the game. We are an easy target for the ROW (rest of world) now and this may be why you see our elections and perhaps our navy being hacked.
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Maine
13,191 posts, read 17,886,169 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
...need I say that anyone who believes the Kennedys died in "lone wolf" attacks is probably wrong?
You need not say it. But if you do, you need to offer up some evidence.


Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
You can find 100% proof that many Americans have kept secrets until their graves...or until at least the graves or the people involved. For example, there was just a reported story on a large camp outside DC where the top Nazi scientists (Von Werner) were taken and wined and dined and even taken on tours of the US Capitol, etc - AFTER the war. No one knew what this camp was or what it was for. Many "regular" Army staff worked there - yet they never (until now - the files are declassified) mentioned it...even to their wives.
But the fact that we now know about it proves the rule: Conspiracies cannot stay conspiracies forever. The truth will come out eventually. And the more people involved, the sooner it will happen. The only surefire way to keep a conspiracy is if it only involves two people, one of which kills the other once it's done.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,136 posts, read 1,979,745 times
Reputation: 5084
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
There is a bit of truth in SOME conspiracy theories - and also in the disputing of same.

Many who have studied covert ops have said that the Human Condition is such that once a lot (more than a handful) of people know about something, it will eventually come out.

But history sometimes shows otherwise...need I say that anyone who believes the Kennedys died in "lone wolf" attacks is probably wrong?
"Is probably wrong" is the problem. If you have to phrase it like that you are just guessing and calling other people wrong.

But the good news is a almost all of the National Archives has begun the online release of JFK Assassination records.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
You can find 100% proof that many Americans have kept secrets until their graves...or until at least the graves or the people involved. For example, there was just a reported story on a large camp outside DC where the top Nazi scientists (Von Werner) were taken and wined and dined and even taken on tours of the US Capitol, etc - AFTER the war. No one knew what this camp was or what it was for. Many "regular" Army staff worked there - yet they never (until now - the files are declassified) mentioned it...even to their wives. This is true of literally 10's of thousands of Americans and Situations in the last 100 years.
How does this prove anything? To quote you "a reported story"? What is a reported story?

Also I live right outside of DC and would be interested in the forts name and or location.

Then we have what is even wrong with this if it is true? AFTER the war? Wernher von Braun and other German scientists were a pretty good asset to have. We almost immediately were in a cold war the the Soviets so courting them to work for us was a no brainer. What would your solution have been? ENSLAVE them and make them work for us?

To me this is a non-story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
I think one of the important things to remember is that there was zero pressure on those involved to "tell the stories" so it was fairly easy being "patriotic" and keeping it to yourself. It might be another story if the USA lost the war or if the people involved were jailed, tried, tortured, threatened, etc.
Or if the US Government attacked the US? I think there is a lot more pressure than giving some Nazi scientists lunch and champagne.
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
But, as it stands, I think a LOT of people - especially those chosen for "secret" jobs, will keep those secrets honorably (as long as the consequences are not deep).
If they believe there is a need I think you are right. I do not think many soldiers would think it important to keep an attack by the US on the US a secret, I also doubt any would do it. I am not even sure how a person would start the conversation because just saying it out loud would be a huge step to take.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,136 posts, read 1,979,745 times
Reputation: 5084
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
9/11 is one of the ultimate examples of "more than one thing could be true". Let's, for instance, throw out the idea that SOME Israeli agents knew this was going to happen. IF this was the case, there is a very good chance they would not tell the US Government all they knew...because they wanted nothing more than having us all beat back the middle east threats to them. Note - I am not suggesting this is true....just that lots of things could be true and they still don't change the outcome.
If this is the case I do not see anything really wrong with this. If we had an ally and we knew it may be attacked and had specifics as a soldier that would not be my call. Giving the information even to an ally may expose information that may keep the US safe or cost US lives.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:36 PM
Status: "Kimo crack corn. Ainokea." (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: Big Island of Hawaii
1,511 posts, read 456,851 times
Reputation: 3587
People jump to conclusions faster than you can provide truth.

For instance, I stopped to help a couple by the side of the road; the woman had collapsed, the man was doing CPR. I called 911, talked to the man, the cops, and the EMTs.

The next day, I saw on a local discussion site that the woman had been mugged and left by the road for hours.
I posted, "No, she collapsed from a heart attack, and people were trying to help her."
people just ignored me and continued to discuss this "assault"

And, yes, it was the same incident.
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:49 PM
 
10,538 posts, read 15,977,587 times
Reputation: 14930
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNGal78 View Post
There are many people who have tried to speak out about 9/11 but either nobody listens or people refuse to hear anything except what the Government tells/feeds them.
Sure youtube is full of these conspiracy theories, 911 in particular.

Most of us don't listen to them because - THEY ARE ALL NONSENSE. They all fall apart when given counter arguments. All of them.

Listen conspiracy theories are a human trait, a tendency to give senseless acts some kind of reason, some kind of explanation that is greater that the actual terrible act. Thus in this case you have the VAST GOVERNMENT CONSIPRACY. JFK assassination is another example - it's just to simply and senseless to imagine it was a lone nutcase with a bolt action rifle. So you have another VAST GOVERNMENT CONSIPRACY.
It seems to give people psychological comfort for some reason, some purpose for the act. I understand that, it's a human need.
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