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Old 08-25-2017, 07:49 AM
 
15,014 posts, read 7,480,804 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post

We have had discussions about this in regards to the football. If the President ordered a nuclear attack without cause the Aid could refuse. Of course he could be relieved of duty and possibly arrested but he would have his day in court. Once relieved of duty the next Aide may be faced with the same situation and may also decline to comply if there were serious questions regarding the integrity of the order or the mental state of the President.
Back in the last days of Watergate, I was a very junior guy sitting in the Strategic Air Command watch--part of my job it was to tear the new messages off the teletypes and take them to the watch officer.


One message from the Pentagon was a warning that if we got any "strange" orders directly from the White House to ignore them until we got further instructions from the Pentagon.


Every day, the DoD keeps tabs on literally a thousand different Indications & Warning factors. It's a big board of a thousand items from the latest editorials in Russian news papers to lunch dates between Russian and American attaches to whether the Russians are opening ICBM silos. We check every morning: Is the indicator red or green? What does the big board look like? Tending red or tending green?


If we got an order from the president to "launch" at a time that all Indications & Warnings indicated that the world really had gone to hell in a handbasket, we'd launch on command.


If we got a launch order from the president and knew that the board was green...we'd dither like hell. We'd have "strange and unusual" communication outages. Military aides would be sneakernetting over to the Congressional Armed Services committee members. Fox and CNN would start getting telephone calls from "unnamed sources."


To be honest, I became convinced long ago that senior officials would probably decide, regardless of presidential orders, to ride out a first strike--to be sure it really happened--and let the survivors retaliate.
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:54 AM
 
15,014 posts, read 7,480,804 times
Reputation: 14001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
You've just hit the nail of why so many conspiracy theories are bogus: People can't keep their mouths shut. Whether you'r talking about Roswell, Area 51, the JFK assassination, alien bases on the moon, FDR talking to aliens, or the supposed 9/11 conspiracy ... do you realize how many dozens if not hundreds of people would have to keep their mouths shut to pull that off? It just doesn't happen.

Even in actual cases of Top Secret operations, eventually people talked. Usually quite a lot. Blabbed all over the place.

Which is a good reason to suspect that 99.9999% of conspiracy theories are nonsense.

But on the other side of the coin, some hoaxers have actually come forwarded and admitted the truth:
That's the same hand.


Bottom line, there is no such thing as a "vast conspiracy."


If it took more than a handful of people, it didn't remain secret.


The idea of a secret being kept across multiple competing agencies and multiple generations with different worldviews that isn't truly and clearly a matter of national security is ludicrous.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Nebraska
3,976 posts, read 6,387,481 times
Reputation: 5832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Back in the last days of Watergate, I was a very junior guy sitting in the Strategic Air Command watch--part of my job it was to tear the new messages off the teletypes and take them to the watch officer.


One message from the Pentagon was a warning that if we got any "strange" orders directly from the White House to ignore them until we got further instructions from the Pentagon.


Every day, the DoD keeps tabs on literally a thousand different Indications & Warning factors. It's a big board of a thousand items from the latest editorials in Russian news papers to lunch dates between Russian and American attaches to whether the Russians are opening ICBM silos. We check every morning: Is the indicator red or green? What does the big board look like? Tending red or tending green?


If we got an order from the president to "launch" at a time that all Indications & Warnings indicated that the world really had gone to hell in a handbasket, we'd launch on command.


If we got a launch order from the president and knew that the board was green...we'd dither like hell. We'd have "strange and unusual" communication outages. Military aides would be sneakernetting over to the Congressional Armed Services committee members. Fox and CNN would start getting telephone calls from "unnamed sources."


To be honest, I became convinced long ago that senior officials would probably decide, regardless of presidential orders, to ride out a first strike--to be sure it really happened--and let the survivors retaliate.
In a way I think/hope you are right. We were the FIRST to use atomic weapons and looking back I am convinced that President Truman made the correct decision AT THAT TIME. We live in a different world now however. The United States must never be the FIRST to use a Nuclear weapon again. M.A.D will and has worked against countries like China and Russia.

The concept of M.A.D. may not work with N. Korea. I think we must find a way to turn the people of N. Korea against their corrupt leaders. . This requires a way of getting information to the N.Korean citizens that will turn them against their leaders. The same also applies to the threats from the Middle East and other parts of the world. Maybe the TRAITORS that are using our news media against our Elected President can suggest a way.
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Old 08-25-2017, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,089 posts, read 1,899,295 times
Reputation: 5040
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunluvver2 View Post
In a way I think/hope you are right. We were the FIRST to use atomic weapons and looking back I am convinced that President Truman made the correct decision AT THAT TIME. We live in a different world now however. The United States must never be the FIRST to use a Nuclear weapon again. M.A.D will and has worked against countries like China and Russia.

The concept of M.A.D. may not work with N. Korea. I think we must find a way to turn the people of N. Korea against their corrupt leaders. . This requires a way of getting information to the N.Korean citizens that will turn them against their leaders. The same also applies to the threats from the Middle East and other parts of the world. Maybe the TRAITORS that are using our news media against our Elected President can suggest a way.
With North Korea I was thinking about the Neutron Bomb. Back in the 80's and 90's it was supposed to be some super battlefield nuke that would not leave the mess that traditional nukes did. Now, I am pretty sure that was at least part whitewash but using neutron bomb on North Korea may be the best of bad solutions with the benefit of letting some other countries, like China, know we are serious.

I think China likes to play some games and this would straighten them right up.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:36 AM
 
15,014 posts, read 7,480,804 times
Reputation: 14001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
With North Korea I was thinking about the Neutron Bomb. Back in the 80's and 90's it was supposed to be some super battlefield nuke that would not leave the mess that traditional nukes did. Now, I am pretty sure that was at least part whitewash but using neutron bomb on North Korea may be the best of bad solutions with the benefit of letting some other countries, like China, know we are serious.

I think China likes to play some games and this would straighten them right up.
The "problem" with neutron bombs is that, ironically, they wouldn't kill people fast enough to be useful.


You see, the US military isn't really into the business of killing civilians, the US military is in the business of killing soldiers, and particularly soldiers who are in the process of overwhelming our soldiers.


The neutron bomb would take up to a couple of weeks to get that done after being dropped. Just not useful for the Army.
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Old 08-25-2017, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
3,976 posts, read 6,387,481 times
Reputation: 5832
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The "problem" with neutron bombs is that, ironically, they wouldn't kill people fast enough to be useful.


You see, the US military isn't really into the business of killing civilians, the US military is in the business of killing soldiers, and particularly soldiers who are in the process of overwhelming our soldiers.


The neutron bomb would take up to a couple of weeks to get that done after being dropped. Just not useful for the Army.
I don't think there is a military solution to N. Korea or militant Islam either. It is ironic how successful PROPAGANDA has been in keeping tyrants in power or helping them assume power. Successful examples were Lenin, Hitler, Mao. Castro, OBAMA etc.
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Old 08-30-2017, 08:55 PM
 
43,403 posts, read 43,295,296 times
Reputation: 45795
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNGal78 View Post
There are many people who have tried to speak out about 9/11 but either nobody listens or people refuse to hear anything except what the Government tells/feeds them.
That's an oft-repeated excuse, but in reality, have you ever met anyone who actually just believes something because the government told them? I have not, and I am 59 years old. My mother is 88, religious, and fairly conservative, and she doesn't believe something just because the government says something.

By the way, I am a survivor of the attacks on the WTC and a person who was close to the cleanup, recovery, and rebuilding, and I am telling you that you could fly a plane through the holes in the 9/11 conspiracy stories. Most of it is just plain stupid. It is obvious to us that the people putting those stories together had no clue about the buildings or what it was like to be there that day or on the pile or at Fresh Kills afterward. The biggest hole is the odd belief that the US government swooped down on lower Manhattan and took control of the cleanup and information. 40,000 people were down there working on that pile, a tiny percentage of which were people from federal agencies. Once you understand that, the rest of the conspiracy theory thing doesn't make sense.

The problem seems to be that there are people who just believe whatever the Internet tells them and never ask any questions.
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:41 PM
 
43,403 posts, read 43,295,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yologuy01 View Post
We need video evidence. I think Video is the best kind of evidence people can get
No, it isn't.

Example: watch the Naudet video of AA11 hitting One WTC. AA11 seems to slide smoothly into the building, hardly affecting anything except the immediate spot around the entry.

I was inside. On 43, the floor jerked so violently that I lost my balance and the woman with me fell to the floor. Fire from burning jet fuel dropping down the elevator blew off the doors of the nearby elevator and engulfed a man who had been standing there. The dropped ceiling frame crumbled and the ceiling tiles began to fall. I got in the stairs. The steel sounded wrong, and you don't even know what means, because you don't know what the building sounded like normally. I do, and I knew from the sound that the building was badly damaged and I could tell that it was leaning.

On the floor above me, a Skylobby with the express "cattle car" elevators, a coworker who had just stepped off of one was thrown across the lobby covered with the skin and blood of the unlucky person behind her who happened to be crossing the threshhold at that moment. The rest of the people still in the elevator died, burning and screaming, as the cable burned through and the elevator dropped.

The elevator landed at the terminus of the shaft in either B2 or B3, I forget which, bursting out its burned human cargo. I know this because two electricians I know were down there and witnessed that.

On the West Street side, the impact shattered the glass wall around the entrance, decapitating and shredding everyone standing out there (it was a popular smoking area.)

The fireball shot down through the lobby, engulfing people there. One of them was a long-time coworker of mine. She died in the Cornell burn unit on October 30. Only six people came out of that burn unit alive, months later.

There's more, but you get the point. You look at a video of a plane seeming to glide into a building and never think about what you can't see in that video. So you say there was hardly any fire at all, and you say that the building was hardly affected, and you say that it fell straight down for no reason at all.

But you are wrong because all you know is what you can see in a video, and that's not much.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Naperville, Illinois
2,967 posts, read 2,504,083 times
Reputation: 4927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
That is why when I hear of Trump wanting "loyalty oaths" and talking about "my military," it scares the jahoobies out of me.
The President isn't the government in our system -- and I've lived through some pretty bad ones in my 70 years. At least as long as we still have the Constitution with its checks and balances.
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Old 09-03-2017, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Naperville, Illinois
2,967 posts, read 2,504,083 times
Reputation: 4927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
The idea of a secret being kept across multiple competing agencies and multiple generations with different worldviews that isn't truly and clearly a matter of national security is ludicrous.
Which anyone who's worked for the government will tell you.
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