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Old 09-06-2017, 06:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
I believe Ruth means that some took some time to get dressed before fleeing.
It looks like they were all dressed when they've left ( some probably better than other, but still all were dressed.) So when they found the first party practically in their undergarments - the shreds of their clothing were found on the SECOND party of people, that they've found already later. Yes, it was shredded in stripes and it was covering different body parts of the other group members ( which is even more bizarre, now when I think about it.)
I've found the files, so I am looking at them.

Quote:
Just because you flee because you believe there is an immanent avalanche does not mean there is actually an avalanche. Have you never made a mistake? From my understanding their camp was not in the right place, that they did not make it to where they actually wanted to camp and this camping space was believed to be a little exposed.
Their tent was in the wrong place ( or rather set up unexpectedly, not as planned,) because of the worsening weather conditions and low visibility. So the team leader (Igor Dyatlov that is) made a decision to set up a tent for the night and to continue to the top of the mountain the next morning. How do I know it? I think the investigators have read about it in a diary of one the two girls, after they found it ( among other things) in a tent. Overall I see from another thread that I've read about it all even earlier than I thought - in 2009, and that particular site had a lot of statements of different people ( that were around that event,) not only strictly files from the criminal investigation that I am looking at now.

Quote:
Can you translate the part of the file that says this?
For one thing, I see the statement of the head of the autopsy in those files, I think I can translate his opinion... But may be I shouldn't hijack this thread, and we can move to the old one instead?

Quote:
Because it seems like the group that sustained the severe injuries could have sustained them in a fall....

You mean as if they fell a fair distance?
See, there was NOWHERE for them to fall from. They were already in a valley, separated from the rest of the group ( they all looked scattered actually...) That is, if they didn't fall a "fair distance" from some flying aircraft, heh.
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:38 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
72,755 posts, read 64,231,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
P.S. Ruth, I looked at the article you have provided.
This whole "solved" thing is laughable to say the least.
It's called "dismiss everything that the investigation teams found and make your own statement - "I know what it was, it's really simple."
It's nonsense of course, because the last thing Soviet authorities wanted to hear at that point in time, that the result of investigation was something "paranormal."
So obviously, if it were an "avalanche" or at least something resembling of it, as in "force of nature," they'd happily cling to that. But it was obviously not a case. So all this latest "debunking" is silly to say the least. The first people that would love to *debunk* the whole story were the Soviet authorities themselves. But they couldn't do it as much as they'd love to.
Well, it'll probably never be solved, but re: what Soviet authorities wanted, one could counter that by saying (and this HAS been said) that the authorities were covering up some kind of military activity in the area, something involving those orange lights in the night sky.

Anyway, you're right, it's an unsolved mystery.
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Old 09-06-2017, 08:43 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
OK, So this is why I am HIGHLY skeptical.

First you say, and I will quote you directly:


What you just posted does not support your original claim quoted above. Lyudmila Dubinina had some severe injuries including broken ribs and internal hemorrhaging. This could have been the cause of the blood in her stomach. This is like a game of telephone, one person says one thing and by the end the original message is completely changed.

I have seen alleged links to it in the past but I do not read Russian. I will say just because you cannot find it now does not mean it is not out there. The hard part is that in recent years there has been a fair amount of interest in this incident so there is naturally a lot of websites and mentions of it on the web. This sometimes helps things hide in plain site.

Sport tourism does not make it sound overly impossible, it makes it sound like you should not be doing this without experience. I am not sure what the experience of all the members was, I have seen statements that make it sound like not all of the party were the most experienced and other statements stating they were all the best of the best. Personally I doubt that many, if any, were capable of summiting Everest so I have a hard time believing they were considered the best mountaineers.

But none of that really matters as highly experienced, well financed and supplied mountaineers do die. So to me it is just a red herring. "Look they were experienced mountain climbers so it must have been an external parties fault". No, life does not work that way. Mount Everest has around 200 bodies on it. Over 130 people have died on Mount Hood since records have been kept.

Do you have a link to the official files that say this? Can you translate exactly please? What did they state was the cause? Aliens? Yeti? The military?

Why do other investigators not mention this? This is a game changer.

So? This does not support your claim. Of course there is urine around a tent of campers. I have actually urinated in the woods myself a few times. I have made yellow snow. It is not a clock. You have no idea of knowing if the people were attacked while they were outside peeing or if they peed and then fled. Also a flashlight on top of the tent does not mean it happened when they were urinating or could have even happened in the hurry as they fled.

What would be unusual about this?

It does not matter what we suspect. They separated. It does not mean that anything was chasing them or that nothing was chasing them.

Did they find the tracks of what was chasing them? That would be a game changer.

Well there have been people that looked at all of the files they can find and none of them that I have seen have stated that Lyudmila Dubinina had her tongue removed while she was alive. [/font]

Well I am glad that your read Russian. Some people claim to read the original files and cannot read the language they were written in, which sets my spidey senses tingling.
If you've looked into this, you may be interested to know, if you don't already, that photos of the bodies are available online. Easy to Google; just google the incident, and photos will come up. I haven't run into anything in Russian, but I wasn't looking for it. If you find anything you want translated, you could send me the link, and I can translate it for you.
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Old 09-06-2017, 10:05 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Well, it'll probably never be solved, but re: what Soviet authorities wanted, one could counter that by saying (and this HAS been said) that the authorities were covering up some kind of military activity in the area, something involving those orange lights in the night sky.

Anyway, you're right, it's an unsolved mystery.
OK, let me explain what I meant in this case using such broad term as "Soviet authorities."
The LOCAL guys in charge (of that tourist club including) were all the Soviet functionaries of different level. So once something like that would happen resulting in death of students, they'd all have to report to their superiors about the accident, and to expect the reprimands for "inadequate supervision" of anything and everything. So once the first team arrived on a spot for investigation, (and right there I see the title of person in charge "worker of the Central Committee of CPSU,") the last thing they'd want to see in this case was some "extra-terrestrial activities."
What they DID want to see ( the more the merrier,) was some storm/avalanche or any act of nature, that caused these tragic deaths. Because the more the nature was involved in severe way, the less responsibility was on them for things that went wrong. They'd have more of an excuse this way. So if they'd have any slightest possibility to suspect an avalanche, they'd take it, to write everything off on it. But they could clearly see that there was NO avalanche there.
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,768 posts, read 2,596,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
If you've looked into this, you may be interested to know, if you don't already, that photos of the bodies are available online. Easy to Google; just google the incident, and photos will come up. I haven't run into anything in Russian, but I wasn't looking for it. If you find anything you want translated, you could send me the link, and I can translate it for you.
What did I say that was wrong or that you disagree with?
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:09 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,768 posts, read 2,596,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
OK, let me explain what I meant in this case using such broad term as "Soviet authorities."
The LOCAL guys in charge (of that tourist club including) were all the Soviet functionaries of different level. So once something like that would happen resulting in death of students, they'd all have to report to their superiors about the accident, and to expect the reprimands for "inadequate supervision" of anything and everything. So once the first team arrived on a spot for investigation, (and right there I see the title of person in charge "worker of the Central Committee of CPSU,") the last thing they'd want to see in this case was some "extra-terrestrial activities."
What they DID want to see ( the more the merrier,) was some storm/avalanche or any act of nature, that caused these tragic deaths. Because the more the nature was involved in severe way, the less responsibility was on them for things that went wrong. They'd have more of an excuse this way. So if they'd have any slightest possibility to suspect an avalanche, they'd take it, to write everything off on it. But they could clearly see that there was NO avalanche there.
This is your speculation. At the time this happened was the first big UFO push, thus people in Russia making these reports. I am not even sure if the lights were seen on the night of the event.

Plus besides what you say there is no evidence linking this to UFO's in any way.

Really this does not seem that unusual to me, what I find unusual is that people focus on this single tragic event of many, many, many and say that it was so bizarre that something paranormal or extraterrestrial had to cause it and then they go further and make up lies to support their claims.
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Old 09-07-2017, 06:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
This is your speculation. At the time this happened was the first big UFO push, thus people in Russia making these reports.
Do you have any proof of it? Because to my knowledge any conversations about the UFOs didn't start in the Soviet Union until the late seventies-early eighties. That's why I was so surprised to see the UFO report ( or rather "Unusual Occurrence in the Sky" - that's the headliner of the article in the local newspaper of that area) on February 17th of 1959. It describes the "red sphere" moving in the sky, with all the changes that it undergoes, and it ends with the words "Since I thought that it had a connection somehow to Sputnik, I turned the radio on, but no signals followed." Signed - "Deputy of the Superintendent of Vysokogorskaya Mine - A. Kiessel.


Quote:
I am not even sure if the lights were seen on the night of the event.
Not only "lights," but apparently the same "red orb" (later reported by mentioned above Kiessel,) was described by Mansi ( the indigenous people of Siberia) as moving over the top of the mountain the night students died. The Mansi not only described it, but drew the pictures of it for the investigators. Their drawings however were later removed from the file and sent to Moscow.

Quote:
Plus besides what you say there is no evidence linking this to UFO's in any way.
The UFO is written all over this case, based on the numerous witnessing, and what's more important, on opinion of the chief investigator himself, who took over the case in April of that year I believe (1959.) In few months he was removed from investigation from what I remember, the investigation was closed and the area has been sealed off.
Luckily I've found couple of my older posts on a subject, so I don't have to dig all over again;

http://www.city-data.com/forum/32954304-post35.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/32979699-post39.html


Quote:
Really this does not seem that unusual to me, what I find unusual is that people focus on this single tragic event of many, many, many and say that it was so bizarre that something paranormal or extraterrestrial had to cause it and then they go further and make up lies to support their claims.
You are obviously not familiar with this case well enough, otherwise you wouldn't find "unusual" why people are still focused on this particular event. Not only no reasonable explanation has ever been found to WHY they've left the tent so suddenly, but once they've found a safe place afterwards in the forest, started fire and all ( as I've said - it was an EXPERIENCED group of people,) what exactly led to their death, the origin of their strange wounds, why they ended up scattered and so on. NONE of it has any adequate explanation so far.

Last edited by erasure; 09-07-2017 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 09-07-2017, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,768 posts, read 2,596,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Do you have any proof of it? Because to my knowledge any conversations about the UFOs didn't start in the Soviet Union until the late seventies-early eighties. That's why I was so surprised to see the UFO report ( or rather "Unusual Occurrence in the Sky" - that's the headliner of the article in the local newspaper of that area) on February 17th of 1959. It describes the "red sphere" moving in the sky, with all the changes that it undergoes, and it ends with the words "Since I thought that it had a connection somehow to Sputnik, I turned the radio on, but no signals followed." Signed - "Deputy of the Superintendent of Vysokogorskaya Mine - A.
"In the Soviet Union, sightings of UFOs were often prompted by tests of secret military rockets. In order to obscure the true nature of the tests, the government sometimes encouraged the publicís belief that these rockets might be extraterrestrial craft but eventually decided that the descriptions themselves might give away too much information. UFO sightings in China have been similarly provoked by military activity that is unknown to the public." History of UFOs - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com I am not sure why people would think Russia immune from this when they were doing many of the same things the US was and thus there would be similar sightings and experiences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Kiessel.




Not only "lights," but apparently the same "red orb" (later reported by mentioned above Kiessel,) was described by Mansi ( the indigenous people of Siberia) as moving over the top of the mountain the night students died. The Mansi not only described it, but drew the pictures of it for the investigators. Their drawings however were later removed from the file and sent to Moscow.
But there is nothing to relate this to the hikers. I also find it odd that the Mansi knew when these kids died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


The UFO is written all over this case, based on the numerous witnessing, and what's more important, on opinion of the chief investigator himself, who took over the case in April of that year I believe (1959.) In few months he was removed from investigation from what I remember, the investigation was closed and the area has been sealed off.
Seeing lights in the sky is one thing, linking it to this incident is clearly another. I am not sure if the area was closed off after this incident but I see no relation to UFO's if it were. There is a large leap of faith being made with not supporting evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Luckily I've found couple of my older posts on a subject, so I don't have to dig all over again;

http://www.city-data.com/forum/32954304-post35.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/32979699-post39.html




You are obviously not familiar with this case well enough, otherwise you wouldn't find "unusual" why people are still focused on this particular event. Not only no reasonable explanation has ever been found to WHY they've left the tent so suddenly, but once they've found a safe place afterwards in the forest, started fire and all ( as I've said - it was an EXPERIENCED group of people,)
You also said that the girls tongue was removed while she was alive and that there were people outside the tent peeing when this all started....
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
what exactly led to their death, the origin of their strange wounds, why they ended up scattered and so on. NONE of it has any adequate explanation so far.
You say strange wounds, many people think there is nothing strange about the wounds other than the storied that have been made up after the fact. The farther in time we get from the incident the bigger the mystery becomes. I am not sure that any of the investigators saw this as much more than a tragic chain of events at the time. Other "facts" have been added after the event. Radiation readings were added after and people claiming that the girls tongue was removed while she was alive. If you add enough "facts" you can believe anything.
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Old 09-07-2017, 09:43 PM
 
13,831 posts, read 12,622,908 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
"In the Soviet Union, sightings of UFOs were often prompted by tests of secret military rockets. In order to obscure the true nature of the tests, the government sometimes encouraged the public’s belief that these rockets might be extraterrestrial craft but eventually decided that the descriptions themselves might give away too much information. UFO sightings in China have been similarly provoked by military activity that is unknown to the public." History of UFOs - Facts & Summary - HISTORY.com I am not sure why people would think Russia immune from this when they were doing many of the same things the US was and thus there would be similar sightings and experiences.
Err... I am sorry.. How old are you?
Do you even know what "Soviet Union" was and how different that society was from the American society?
So let me explain to you something - officially atheist country, guided by "Marxism-Leninism" theories, so what UFOs, what "extra-terrestrials" are you even talking about?
Even the definition itself "UFO" ("НЛО" in Russian) didn't appear there until the seventies as I've already said. I don't believe that the sightings were spotted there at the same time as in the US as well - look here, they start talking about it only in 1977. ( The Tunguska event was always regarded as the comet explosion or it was somehow related to Tesla experiments, so no UFOs here.)
That's why mentioning of these things back in 1959 was a big discovery for me.

Quote:
But there is nothing to relate this to the hikers.
Again- I left links to my older posts. It's pretty self-explanatory.

Quote:
I also find it odd that the Mansi knew when these kids died.
Number one - it was very much "talk of the town," plus initially the investigators were concentrated on local Mansi people, thinking that THEY might be killers of students, because it was their "sacred mountain" and what's not.
Then it has been established that local Mansi had friendly relations with Russians in the area, it was not their "sacred mountain," that the death of students didn't come as a result of any assault ( at least the one that could have been explained,) so few of the Mansi became part of a search team from what I remember, and served as witnesses for investigation.

Quote:
Seeing lights in the sky is one thing, linking it to this incident is clearly another. I am not sure if the area was closed off after this incident but I see no relation to UFO's if it were. There is a large leap of faith being made with not supporting evidence.
You obviously didn't read the links I've left. It was the chief investigator that came to the UFO conclusion on the basis of all materials he had. Here it is one more time;
"...Back then I could only guess, but now I am positive about it. I am not going to assert what those spheres were exactly;whether it was some kind of a weapon, the aliens or what's not, but I am confident that they were directly related to the death of the group. The pilots, the geologists who have traveled and flew all over those places, unanimously assure: there were no traces of explosion at Otorten and its surroundings. And there was no explosion for sure in conventional understanding of it, as an explosion of a shell or a bomb - the way we know it. It was a different kind of explosion, something like the burst of a balloon. Here is the thing, that on the fringe of the forest where hikers so hastily escaped from tent, the branches of trees looked as though they were scorched."

You can read the rest here

Quote:
You also said that the girls tongue was removed while she was alive and that there were people outside the tent peeing when this all started....
Yes, the first conclusion was made ( probably later in time) based on the fact that she had blood in her stomach. So yes, it's a speculation of course, but very probable, because her other injuries that caused her death happened while she was still alive ( according to the doctors.)
The second statement was made by the first investigator, who was one of the first people that arrived on a scene. It's still in the files as far as I can see.

Quote:
You say strange wounds, many people think there is nothing strange about the wounds other than the storied that have been made up after the fact. The farther in time we get from the incident the bigger the mystery becomes.
No it was a mystery back then and it's still a mystery now. Those that see "nothing strange" about their wounds are simply not familiar with the case.
In fact recently I came across some ( relatively) new articles in one of the Russian newspapers ( from 2014) - the whole series of them, where they are looking into this case again. Not only they bring the subject of the injuries that caused deaths of those students that were found later, but now they question even the injuries that were found on students that supposedly died of hypothermia. It's all based on autopsy reports of course, and they do not understand the origin of these wounds, because they'd almost indicate that some of them were struck with the blunt object, while other ( Dyatlov in this case) was repeatedly hitting something with his fist. Not to mention that quite a few of them ( girl including) had nose bleed.

https://www.kp.ru/daily/26311.5/3189866/


Quote:
I am not sure that any of the investigators saw this as much more than a tragic chain of events at the time.
No, none of them could give any logical explanation to what happened, as much as they've tried.

Quote:
Other "facts" have been added after the event. Radiation readings were added after and people claiming that the girls tongue was removed while she was alive. If you add enough "facts" you can believe anything.
Who told you so?
No, their clothes were submitted for radiation test by the second investigator, precisely for a reason that the "sightings" reports were so persistent.

Last edited by erasure; 09-07-2017 at 10:18 PM..
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:15 PM
 
10,157 posts, read 9,911,248 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
If you've looked into this, you may be interested to know, if you don't already, that photos of the bodies are available online. Easy to Google; just google the incident, and photos will come up. I haven't run into anything in Russian, but I wasn't looking for it. If you find anything you want translated, you could send me the link, and I can translate it for you.
Why do you believe that photos on this subject you see on google are legit? You accept them as true but deny BF evidence.
Not attacking but just trying to get an understanding of how you think.
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