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Old 09-21-2017, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You know, I went through tonnes of pages talking about this case ( always keeping in mind what I saw in the original files, even though I didn't go through ALL of them, obviously.) So I already "screen" the quality of page, watching whether it's just "hear-say" thing, juicy gossip or it's the knowledgeable people/professionals that discuss the event. ( I came across such page yesterday for example, where the people familiar with the forensic science are looking into the case, in autopsy that is.) The problem is, their language gets very technical, while the kind of English I use here is more of "generic kind." And it's the same "generic kind" of English that I see on the site you are talking about ( heck, even the translation of the closing statement is not good enough as I've said.) And because of THIS PARTICULAR PROBLEM the English speakers are loosing a lot of valuable information, comparably to what we see in Russian in description of this case. For example the extent of their injuries ( which was one of the mysteries of this case) needs to be translated into English to begin with, but I don't see it anywhere, including this mediocre site. That's just an example. Another example - when we go through pages of it, we KNOW ( out of the multiple witnessing) that the search team is aware that there are no "steep cliffs" from where these hikers could fall, since the kind of "creek ravine" where they found those student was going to the creek's bed gradually, except for few spots here and there,
They only need one spot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
the one they made their "couch" including. But it looks like they've chosen that particular spot for their own protection as well, an the height of the wall is no taller than 2.5 meters
2.5 meters without snow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
( even those THEY were not found at THAT spot, but a bit further, covered under the layers of snow. So this is not a place consistent with any kind of fall ( other than from their own height as the pathologist keeps on saying,)
The pathologist keeps saying this? And then we have the anomoly that you yourself have stated that they were all very skilled (later changed) because this was a Category III climb, but then you say it is not dangerous. That is a contradiction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
while English speakers keep on talking about the "ravine" and pictureing something totally different. And that's how it becomes a game of a "broken phone.'
So in the light of it, I'd like to ask you a question, can you point me at English site, that describes the extent of their injuries? If not, we should probably go from there.
What exactly, and be specific, did the site I linked get wrong that really matters? Did the autopsy state that Lyudmilla Dubinina's tongue was removed while she was alive? Becasue if not that makes the site I linked more credible to me. Also Wikipedia states that the released documents contained no information about the condition of the skiers' internal organs. Is that wrong? The documents state that their injuries would require force such as a car crash. Are you saying that there was a car at the scene? If not do the documents state that they could not have been caused by a fall on a Category III expedition?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post



No "huge speed" is embellished by me, because I am trying to convey the "image" the best I can, but the pathologist used rather "car crash."
I think we can agree that they were not hit by a car? So then we have fall. Do the docuements state that the injuries could not have been caused by a fall? Also when a person is dying of hypothermia do they get bruising the same as if they are operating within normal temperatures or does the blood flow to the core of the body which may impact that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


No it's all in the context -
Let's dicsuss the facts and not your interpretation of them context. They seemed to not find much unusual to what happened to them other than why they left the tent. It seems to me that the file lists several mistakes that were made and then ends because they do not know why they left the tent. Are you saying the official files do not mention the mistakes that were made?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
they don't even discuss such possibility, based on what the search team described them/pictures from the place where they've been found.
OK, here you go again. The files may not discuss the possibility. Just state that. Do not ADD the why UNLESS IT STATES that. Adding "Facts™" does not help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
And that's why even 60 years later it's still a mystery what happened to them, why they left the tent, why they were found in different places and the nature of their injuries.
It is not a mystery what happened to them. They all died. We know that, unless you are saying they did not? The mystery is why they left the tent and several of their choices after, like splitting up, the injuries and clothes that some were found wearing. But considering they may have been suffering from hypothermia and working in the dark none of this seems too unusual. It seems like mistakes were made and people died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post




Yes, but not the kind of "mistake" that made them left the tent ( which was the culprit of the later tragic events.) The best way to put it, if not for his original mistakes, they probably wouldn't have ended up in the "wrong place at the wrong time." But then, again, may be not, and they were in danger anywhere around that mountain.
So we agree that the official files state that Dyatlov made mistakes. Mistakes that led to the deaths of the members of the party. I agree that it is curious that they left the tent in the manner that they seem to have, but that does not mean there was anything paranormal or extraterrestrial about it. We just do not know. Like a Mary Celeste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


It's all described in details in Russian WIKI, step by step, with names ( and even dates I believe.)
That does not answer my question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post




That's why I asked how old were you, lol.
I know the Soveit Union had money.currency. Are you saying they did not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
You obviously have no knowledge of the Soviet state, otherwise you'd never ask such question.
Even though I don't exactly like this analogy, think more in terms of Hitler's Germany ( particularly at the height of Stalin's times.) That's in term of state organization, but as far as "money making" - that's kinda funny being put in the context. .
In 1990 the Soviet Union was not like Stalin's times.... It was the very end of the Soviet Union. Perestroika introduced some economic reforms. So I will ask you again and see if you can answer and not try to dodge it with an insult: Did he make any money off of this? Or if ytou like: Did he profit in any way from the articles. Thank you.
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Old 09-21-2017, 04:22 PM
 
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Hallucinogens could cause behavior like this.
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Old 09-21-2017, 09:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
They only need one spot.

2.5 meters without snow.

The pathologist keeps saying this? And then we have the anomoly that you yourself have stated that they were all very skilled (later changed) because this was a Category III climb, but then you say it is not dangerous. That is a contradiction.
I think I am finally getting by now the source of confusion.
You are thinking that the "climb" was Category III, which basically turns this group into the mountaineers on a dangerous and challenging mountain climb. So within THIS context, the description of multiple broken ribs doesn't come as anything surprising to you. That's why you think in terms of "cliffs and ravines" most likely - I get it by now.
OK, let me clear the situation. These guys WERE NOT the mountain climbers, they were really skiers/hikers and their qualification was "sport tourism" (Soviet terminology.) The big part of "sport tourism" was general physical preparedness for the endeavors, plus the skills of survival in the wilderness.
The wilderness in the area ( or rather the rout) where students were hiking, included that particular mountain that students were planning to hike, but if you look at this mountain you can easily figure out that it's not Category III for REAL mountain climbers.
So once they were OFF the slope of that mountain, ( where their tent was, ) the rest of their misfortunes happened already on the plain terrain - in the valley, forest, and the gully (which is a much better description than ravine in this case.)

THIS will give you a better idea of the area.

This is even clearer picture of the mountain itself and what's now known as Dyatlov's pass.

http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/fg5/images/raz_0016.jpg

So once we've established this, let's move on.

Quote:
What exactly, and be specific, did the site I linked get wrong that really matters? Did the autopsy state that Lyudmilla Dubinina's tongue was removed while she was alive? Becasue if not that makes the site I linked more credible to me. Also Wikipedia states that the released documents contained no information about the condition of the skiers' internal organs. Is that wrong?
That site for once does not state the REAL cause of death of Dubinina and two others, which makes ME to make the translation with medical terminology involved, which I hate to do)))
Another thing ( yet again,) as all other English sites it does not describe the observations of the search team at the first location where the bodies of Dyatlov and Doroshenko were found ( i.e. at the fringe of the forest, around that cedar tree.) And this is an important point of investigation.
With other words, as all English sites it does a half-arsed job, sorry to say.
Now when it comes to the statement of English wiki that "released documents contained no information about the condition of the skiers' internal organs" - I am a bit confused, as to released WHEN? Initially? Most likely not of course, since the whole investigation was hushed as much as possible for the public.
But now of course the autopsy files are available.


Quote:
The documents state that their injuries would require force such as a car crash. Are you saying that there was a car at the scene? If not do the documents state that they could not have been caused by a fall on a Category III expedition?
No of course no car was involved, it was just the best analogy both pathologist and the investigator were trying to use, in order to describe the nature of the injuries. ( By the way the investigator was talking about the car "crashing on a high speed," so it was not just my *embellishment* after all - I've got it from his description, I just didn't remember it.)
So now when it comes to the "fall" - no, there was no such possibility in the gully ( where they were hiding from the wind as the investigators think.) They describe a lot of the activities of the students there BEFORE they were hit with/by something. That's why the deadly injuries that they've received couldn't have come from any kind of 'fall," not to mention that there were NO heights there to receive such DEADLY, excruciating injuries. ( I am yet to translate the REAL cause of their death per results of the autopsy.)




Quote:
So we agree that the official files state that Dyatlov made mistakes. Mistakes that led to the deaths of the members of the party. I agree that it is curious that they left the tent in the manner that they seem to have, but that does not mean there was anything paranormal or extraterrestrial about it. We just do not know. Like a Mary Celeste.
I looked up his mistakes - the timing ( they started the climb too late in the day, they swayed that many degrees to the left, and as the result of it ended up on the wrong side of the hill I believe, and thus were forced to set up a tent not at the best location. Yes, those were all mistakes, but I don't believe that they ultimately were the reason for the group's death.

Quote:
That does not answer my question.
You asked me about the source of the details I was aware of. They are all on Russian sites, ( wiki including,) but none of these details are on English sites of course.

Quote:
I know the Soveit Union had money.currency. Are you saying they did not?
In 1990 the Soviet Union was not like Stalin's times.... It was the very end of the Soviet Union. Perestroika introduced some economic reforms. So I will ask you again and see if you can answer and not try to dodge it with an insult: Did he make any money off of this? Or if ytou like: Did he profit in any way from the articles. Thank you.
To make the long story short - no, he didn't make any money on his article ( or any of his writing.) But he started talking about the old investigation when he was already allowed to, out in the open ( i.e. in the nineties.) He said he felt really bad for the parents of the students, but his hands were tied back then.
Overall he comes across as a very decent human being, unlike the first investigator, that comes across as a typical Soviet functionary.

Last edited by erasure; 09-21-2017 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:45 PM
 
Location: First Hill, Seattle
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I'm admittedly not an expert researcher on this incident, but I've found nearly all of the theories surrounding the incident to be inadequate. Here are a few of my concerns:

Infrasound checks the most boxes, but what concerns me is the lack of historical precedent for this being a proximate cause of death. Are there any other cases of infrasound causing mass hallucinations leading to death? Did these people happen upon the only place in the world where such conditions were possible? Studies show that animals are also susceptible to infrasound sensitivity. Are there any cases of animals succumbing to infrasound effects in the wild?

Regarding the missing body parts, animal scavenging is a reasonable explanation. However, I've also heard time and time again explanations of body decomposition. But they were entombed in ice and snow. We've found cadavers thousands of years old remarkably preserved because the cold and ice prevented decomposition. There are fully preserved bodies on Everest, still there, of dead mountaineers. Dyatlov Pass, even in March, would it not have been still cold and snowy?

When the incident took place, the area appeared to have been heavily covered by snow. Some have attributed the rather severe internal injuries to falls. I've read that the force required to afflict the types of injuries suffered by the latter bodies discovered would be equivalent to a car crash or the blast from an IED. Was the topography of the area such that they could have fallen and accumulated such momentum and velocity to allow for such conditions?

The last and most horrific bodies were discovered May 5, autopsies conducted May 9. Case was closed May 28. The lion's share of the questions are regarding the discovery of the last three bodies, yet they closed the case within three weeks? That seems very odd.

Finally, why were the bodies tested for radiation? Was this standard operating procedure for criminal investigations in Soviet Russia? You don't normally think of radiation testing as part of a criminal investigation.

The avalanche theory makes me skeptical. I've looked at contour maps and where they were camped does not appear to be a steep enough slope for an avalanche. Moreover, the tents, when discovered, appeared to be intact.

The extreme cold theory makes me even more skeptical. These people documented everything on their trip. Everything. And as experienced hikers they were well aware of the possibility of hypothermia. The onset of hypothermia is slow and conditions become more and more dire more slowly. It is unreasonable to conclude that not a single one of these nine people would not take the time to scribble on one of their notebooks that the situation was becoming increasingly dire.

I'm not positing any theory, but I do think it is one of the truly unexplained stories of modern history in that no theory meets that 51% probability threshold. Too many questions, too many problems with the source documents. I've not met a single theory about this incident that I've been comfortable with. This is compounded by the fact that it occurred in 1950s Soviet Russia which really makes me question the veracity of the evidence available.

I'm not convinced it was anything "paranormal" and I'm not convinced it was anything "natural". I am skeptical of all of the theories I've read, though I'm less skeptical of the Soviets testing something that went wrong due to the serious questions I have about the investigation and the fact that it was 1950s Soviet Russia.

Last edited by Bluefox; 09-21-2017 at 10:54 PM..
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:38 PM
 
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OK, I struggled with medical terminology in the absence of a reliable dictionary, but this is more or less the conclusions of the autopsies of the three hikers found in the gully. ( I'd kill myself if I'd have to go through the whole list.)

So, first - L. Dubinina ( she suffered the most.)

Conclusion ( of the autopsy made by the pathologist)

Based on the autopsy, I concluded that Dubinina's death came as a result of a massive hemorrhaging into the right ventricle, multiple ribs fracture and massive hemorrhaging in thoracic cavity.
Mentioned above injuries could happen as a result of impact of enormous force, that caused the closed trauma of Dubinina's chest. At that, these injuries happened while she was still alive, and came as a result of impact of enormous force, with following fall, throw, or hit in the chest area.
Damages of the soft tissues in the head area and washerwoman skin of the limbs are postmortem changes, rot and decomposing of the body that stayed in the water before the discovery of it.

Dubinina's death is forcible ( i.e. not of natural causes. There were two classifications of death in the S.U from what I remember; the "natural" one and the "forcible" one.)

***

A. Zolotaryov.

On the basis of my examination of Zolotaryov's body, I believe that his death came as a result of multiple ribs fracture at the right side with internal hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, plus the effect of the low temperature in the area. Mentioned above multiple fractures with the presence of pleural hemorrhaging came in place while he was still alive. They came as the result of the impact of enormous force directed at his chest area at the moment of his fall, or compression ( applied to him) or while he was thrown.
Damages of the soft tissues in the head area and presence of the washerwoman skin in fingers area and on the limbs are postmortem changes of the body, located in the water before the discovery of it.

Death of Zolotaryov is forcible.

***

On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeax-Brignolle, I believe that his death came as the result of a closed multi-fragmentary depressed? fracture in the cranial volt area and base area of the skull, with massive hemorrhaging under the brain tissue and into the brain matter, with the presence of low temperature. Mentioned above multi-fragmentary fracture of the cranial volt and the base of the skull took place when Thibeax-Brignolle was alive, and it came as the result of impact of enormous force with the following fall, hurl and contusion of Thibeaux-Brignolle.
Damages of the soft tissues in the head area and washerwoman skin of the limbs are postmortem changes of the body that stayed in the water before the discovery of it.

Death of Thibeaux-Brignolle is forcible.

****

Now here comes the questioning of the pathologist; ( it's all from the investigation files)

Q. What kind of force could cause the kind of injuries that Thibeaux sustained?

A. It's indicated in the autopsy that the damages of Thibeaux's head could be a result of the hurling of the body or fall. I don't believe that Thibeaux could get these damages while falling from his own height, i.e. that he slipped and hit his head. Massive, depressed and very deep ( cranial vault and the base of the skull) fractures can come as the result of being thrown away by a car moving with a huge speed, or with these types of car accidents. This injury could take place if Thibeaux would be thrown by the strong wind gust, where he would hit his head on the stones, ice and so on.

Q. Can we guess that Thibeux was hit by a rock that was in human's hand?
A. In this case the soft tissue would have been damaged, but it's not a case.
Q. How long did Thibeaux live after getting his injuries, could he move on his own accord, talk and so on?

(* I believe they are trying to establish here whether his injury took place while he was still in a tent or whether it happened later.)

A. After the received injury Thibeax had a brain contusion - i.e. he was in unconscious state. So he would have difficulty to move; he couldn't do it himself. My opinion is that he wouldn't be able to move even if he'd be assisted by two people on both sides. He could have been only carried or dragged. His vital signs would have been still in place for the next 2-3 hours.

Q. How can you explain the origin of the injuries in Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Can they be united by the common cause?
A. I believe that the essense of injuries in Dubinina and Zolotaryov - multiple fructures of ribs ( both sides and symmetrical in Dubinina and one-sided in Zolotaryov,) as much as the hemorrhaging in the cardiac muscle in Dubinina's case, and in case of Zolotaryov - hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, indicate that they happened while both of them were alive, and come as the result of impact of enormous force, approximately the same as it was applied to Thibeaux.

These kind of injuries that we have in a picture, and without the damage to the soft tissue are very similar to the kind of injuries that happen as a result of the blast wave.

Last edited by erasure; 09-23-2017 at 12:33 AM..
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:43 PM
 
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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
The last and most horrific bodies were discovered May 5, autopsies conducted May 9. Case was closed May 28. The lion's share of the questions are regarding the discovery of the last three bodies, yet they closed the case within three weeks? That seems very odd.
The investigator (L. Ivanov) was ordered to close it.

Quote:
Finally, why were the bodies tested for radiation? Was this standard operating procedure for criminal investigations in Soviet Russia? You don't normally think of radiation testing as part of a criminal investigation.
No it was not.
But the UFO sightings were so persistently witnessed in the area ( the night of student's death and location including,) that Ivanov ( the investigator) requested radiation test.
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Old 09-23-2017, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
OK, I struggled with medical terminology in the absence of a reliable dictionary, but this is more or less the conclusions of the autopsies of the three hikers found in the gully. ( I'd kill myself if I'd have to go through the whole list.)

So, first - L. Dubinina ( she suffered the most.)

Conclusion ( of the autopsy made by the pathologist)

Based on the autopsy, I concluded that Dubinina's death came as a result of a massive hemorrhaging into the right ventricle, multiple ribs fracture and massive hemorrhaging in thoracic cavity.
Mentioned above injuries could happen as a result of impact of enormous force, that caused the closed trauma of Dubinina's chest. At that, these injuries happened while she was still alive, and came as a result of impact of enormous force, with following fall, throw, or hit in the chest area.
Damages of the soft tissues in the head area and washerwoman skin of the limbs are postmortem changes, rot and decomposing of the body that stayed in the water before the discovery of it.

Dubinina's death is forcible ( i.e. not of natural causes. There were two classifications of death in the S.U from what I remember; the "natural" one and the "forcible" one.)

***

A. Zolotaryov.

On the basis of my examination of Zolotaryov's body, I believe that his death came as a result of multiple ribs fracture at the right side with internal hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, plus the effect of the low temperature in the area. Mentioned above multiple fractures with the presence of pleural hemorrhaging came in place while he was still alive. They came as the result of the impact of enormous force directed at his chest area at the moment of his fall, or compression ( applied to him) or while he was thrown.
Damages of the soft tissues in the head area and presence of the washerwoman skin in fingers area and on the limbs are postmortem changes of the body, located in the water before the discovery of it.

Death of Zolotaryov is forcible.

***

On the basis of the examination of the body of Thibeax-Brignolle, I believe that his death came as the result of a closed multi-fragmentary depressed? fracture in the cranial volt area and base area of the skull, with massive hemorrhaging under the brain tissue and into the brain matter, with the presence of low temperature. Mentioned above multi-fragmentary fracture of the cranial volt and the base of the skull took place when Thibeax-Brignolle was alive, and it came as the result of impact of enormous force with the following fall, hurl and contusion of Thibeaux-Brignolle.
Damages of the soft tissues in the head area and washerwoman skin of the limbs are postmortem changes of the body that stayed in the water before the discovery of it.

Death of Thibeaux-Brignolle is forcible.

****

Now here comes the questioning of the pathologist; ( it's all from the investigation files)

Q. What kind of force could cause the kind of injuries that Thibeaux sustained?

A. It's indicated in the autopsy that the damages of Thibeaux's head could be a result of the hurling of the body or fall. I don't believe that Thibeaux could get these damages while falling from his own height, i.e. that he slipped and hit his head. Massive, depressed and very deep ( cranial vault and the base of the skull) fractures can come as the result of being thrown away by a car moving with a huge speed, or with these types of car accidents. This injury could take place if Thibeaux would be thrown by the strong wind gust, where he would hit his head on the stones, ice and so on.

Q. Can we guess that Thibeux was hit by a rock that was in human's hand?
A. In this case the soft tissue would have been damaged, but it's not a case.
Q. How long did Thibeaux live after getting his injuries, could he move on his own accord, talk and so on?

(* I believe they are trying to establish here whether his injury took place while he was still in a tent or whether it happened later.)

A. After the received injury Thibeax had a brain contusion - i.e. he was in unconscious state. So he would have difficulty to move; he couldn't do it himself. My opinion is that he wouldn't be able to move even if he'd be assisted by two people on both sides. He could have been only carried or dragged. His vital signs would have been still in place for the next 2-3 hours.

Q. How can you explain the origin of the injuries in Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Can they be united by the common cause?
A. I believe that the essense of injuries in Dubinina and Zolotaryov - multiple fructures of ribs ( both sides and symmetrical in Dubinina and one-sided in Zolotaryov,) as much as the hemorrhaging in the cardiac muscle in Dubinina's case, and in case of Zolotaryov - hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, indicate that they happened while both of them were alive, and come as the result of impact of enormous force, approximately the same as it was applied to Thibeaux.

These kind of injuries that we have in a picture, and without the damage to the soft tissue are very similar to the kind of injuries that happen as a result of the blast wave.
This supports what I have been saying and I feel counters what you have been saying. They even state it could be the result of a fall, but make it clear not a short fall. They also seem to see nothing unusual about this. I also think this is why they closed the case file as well. They know they cannot ascertain why the hikers did what they did in those final hours but they see that their decisions led to their deaths. It also absolutely counters your earlier claim that Lyudmilla Dubinina was not found in water. There is nothing in this case without embellishment (Lyudmilla Dubinina's tongue was removed while she was alive, they were hit by a car, etc.) that is unusual. It is tragic.
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,768 posts, read 2,593,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
I'm admittedly not an expert researcher on this incident, but I've found nearly all of the theories surrounding the incident to be inadequate. Here are a few of my concerns:

Infrasound checks the most boxes, but what concerns me is the lack of historical precedent for this being a proximate cause of death. Are there any other cases of infrasound causing mass hallucinations leading to death? Did these people happen upon the only place in the world where such conditions were possible? Studies show that animals are also susceptible to infrasound sensitivity. Are there any cases of animals succumbing to infrasound effects in the wild?
I am highly skeptical of the infrasound argument. It seems too elaborate when there are mush simpler explanations. Like someone trying to prove to others that they are intelligent rather than look at the actual situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Regarding the missing body parts, animal scavenging is a reasonable explanation. However, I've also heard time and time again explanations of body decomposition. But they were entombed in ice and snow. We've found cadavers thousands of years old remarkably preserved because the cold and ice prevented decomposition. There are fully preserved bodies on Everest, still there, of dead mountaineers. Dyatlov Pass, even in March, would it not have been still cold and snowy?
It was cold and there clearly was snow around but it was not so cold as to stop running water. Also they were not entombed in ice. Scavengers could have gotten to them any time after they were incapacitated or dead. Also please remember not all scavengers are mammals. There are birds and insects as well. Here is a picture that shows 3(?) of the bodies, including Lyudmila Dubinina, in what appears to be running water. You will also notice the small ledge and what looks like rocks here. http://gipotezi.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/123-1.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
When the incident took place, the area appeared to have been heavily covered by snow. Some have attributed the rather severe internal injuries to falls. I've read that the force required to afflict the types of injuries suffered by the latter bodies discovered would be equivalent to a car crash or the blast from an IED. Was the topography of the area such that they could have fallen and accumulated such momentum and velocity to allow for such conditions?
There are a couple of points to make here. 1. There was no evidence of cars in the area. 2. There was no evidence of a large explosion or IED in the area. 3. There was no evidence of other people or large animals in the area. The terrain in fair climate does not look too rough from the pictures I have seen but I believe that it would be safe to assume they fell, maybe more than once, and sustained those injuries. I mean they could have been walking on a snow ledge on the edge of a crevasse and it all collapsed. Also if they were close the ones on top could have fallen on one or two others increasing the damage. I just think that the most reasonable explanation is that they fell or were blown around into things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
The last and most horrific bodies were discovered May 5, autopsies conducted May 9. Case was closed May 28. The lion's share of the questions are regarding the discovery of the last three bodies, yet they closed the case within three weeks? That seems very odd.
Why does that seem odd? It seems they kind of knew what happened though maybe not the specifics. They wrote in the report that several mistakes were made, they seemed to find no evidence of other people so they closed the case. How long do you think it should have been open? I mean 3 weeks is 21 days, or 7 days short of a month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Finally, why were the bodies tested for radiation? Was this standard operating procedure for criminal investigations in Soviet Russia? You don't normally think of radiation testing as part of a criminal investigation.
I have seen conflicting reports that they were even tested. Even if there was radiation it does not seem to have any affect on the cause of death or the incident itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
The avalanche theory makes me skeptical. I've looked at contour maps and where they were camped does not appear to be a steep enough slope for an avalanche. Moreover, the tents, when discovered, appeared to be intact.
To add to this there is no history of avalanches in this area. BUT that is not important. What is important is could the the people in the party have thought there was immienent threat of an avalanche. The answer is surely. The records, and I believe diaries/journals, show that where they camped was not where they intended. You ever have something you forgot to do haunt you at night? Sometimes it can bring you to near paranoia? Or at least in me it can. This could have caused a panic. I am not saying it did but if the hikers thought there was a imminent threat of avalanche that could be enough and frankly there is no evidence of anything else besides a fire?
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Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
The extreme cold theory makes me even more skeptical. These people documented everything on their trip. Everything. And as experienced hikers they were well aware of the possibility of hypothermia. The onset of hypothermia is slow and conditions become more and more dire more slowly. It is unreasonable to conclude that not a single one of these nine people would not take the time to scribble on one of their notebooks that the situation was becoming increasingly dire.
You are assuming they has their journals and writing implements with them when they died and also that there was light enough to write. Frankly even having all of these their attempts at survival should override and desire to write. Also at least some members of the party did die of hypothermia so I am not sure why you think this matters at all.
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I'm not positing any theory, but I do think it is one of the truly unexplained stories of modern history in that no theory meets that 51% probability threshold. Too many questions, too many problems with the source documents. I've not met a single theory about this incident that I've been comfortable with. This is compounded by the fact that it occurred in 1950s Soviet Russia which really makes me question the veracity of the evidence available.

I'm not convinced it was anything "paranormal" and I'm not convinced it was anything "natural". I am skeptical of all of the theories I've read, though I'm less skeptical of the Soviets testing something that went wrong due to the serious questions I have about the investigation and the fact that it was 1950s Soviet Russia.
There seems to be many natural and ordinary explanations for this to me. I mean people have a track record of tragic, accidental, deaths for hundreds of thousands of years. No reason to assume that no mistakes could have been made that day. Why look for a paranormal explanation when a simple one will do?
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Old 09-23-2017, 08:10 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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The investigator (L. Ivanov) was ordered to close it.
What evidence supports this? Is it in the case file or any official files? A lot of the Soviet Files have been opened up.
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Old 09-23-2017, 10:15 AM
 
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This supports what I have been saying and I feel counters what you have been saying. They even state it could be the result of a fall, but make it clear not a short fall.
There was nowhere to fall from for this kind of injuries ( any kind of serious injuries actually.) Not only that - the hikers made it to that gully on their own accord and there was a lot of activities there ( according to what the search team saw,) and if you ask me, some of these activities were rather eerie. ( I'll try to translate what that was all about. And that was on top of what the search team already saw as unexplainable things that took place near the cedar tree - i.e. the first place where the hikers camped out after they've left their tent.)
So. If the hikers just "fell" into the gully and received this kind of injuries ( which is impossible by default,) there was no possibility for them to move and to be involved in the kind of activities that the search team described.

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They also seem to see nothing unusual about this. I also think this is why they closed the case file as well. They know they cannot ascertain why the hikers did what they did in those final hours but they see that their decisions led to their deaths.
Uh-hm, yeah..
Look, I already understand that you argue for the sake of proving that you are right, so no matter what additional details I'll bring in, you'll disregard them and will keep on repeating your own narrative.
But I keep on adding material to this thread, because other people might be interested in this case, so forgive me if I'll start ignoring you here and there.


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It also absolutely counters your earlier claim that Lyudmilla Dubinina was not found in water.
*Sigh.* That's not what I was arguing about - the English Wiki sayas that she was "lying face down in the creek" which is not true - the photo clearly shows that she was standing on her knees.

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There is nothing in this case without embellishment (Lyudmilla Dubinina's tongue was removed while she was alive, they were hit by a car, etc.) that is unusual. It is tragic.

The viciousness of her injuries of unknown origin ( while she was still alive,) makes some think that her "oral diaphragm" and eyes were removed as well, particularly taking in consideration that she had blood in her stomach.
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