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Old 09-23-2017, 10:43 AM
 
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[quote=Old Guard;49605294]
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What evidence supports this? Is it in the case file or any official files?
Why would people that ordered to close the case would indicate it in the files?
You are obviously clueless of what the Soviet state was all about.
No, the specific Soviet functionary of the region (Ivanov stated his name and his position ( which could have been easily checked) ) ordered him to close it.
Everyone in this situation would guess ( and rightfully so,) that this particular person was following the commands of his superiors. ( Interestingly enough, I followed the link on Russian wiki - this man seems to be a prominent member of the Communist party - he is in the Wiki as well.

I would make another guess that the order came from Moscow, since down there they were aware of the case as well, judging by the fact that they've requested the drawings of the UFO made by Mansi to be sent to them. Not to mention that some pages re missing from the file all together. I see the numerous mentioning of it.

Quote:
A lot of the Soviet Files have been opened up.
It IS open by now ( more or less,) otherwise how would I know all these things - I mean how they'd end up on the internet sites?
It's still kept in the archives of the Sverdlovsk region, and has a "limited access, " with the permission of the Public Prosecution office of that region.
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Old 09-23-2017, 09:03 PM
 
Location: First Hill, Seattle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Versatile View Post
Hallucinogens could cause behavior like this.
Is there any evidence that any of these people had a history of drug use? Is it reasonable to assume all nine of them took hallucinogens which caused them to vacate the tent? If I recall correctly the toxicology reports did indeed show a few, but not all, were intoxicated but I didn't see what substance it was. I'm guessing alcohol.
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Old 09-23-2017, 11:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefox View Post
Is there any evidence that any of these people had a history of drug use? Is it reasonable to assume all nine of them took hallucinogens which caused them to vacate the tent? If I recall correctly the toxicology reports did indeed show a few, but not all, were intoxicated but I didn't see what substance it was. I'm guessing alcohol.
I checked on it. I am not sure what "toxicology" reports are in this case, but their autopsies state very clearly that "during the examination of the body the presence of the alcohol is not detected." (That was for all of them.)
The "alcohol version" ( i.e. that they were all drunk that night, got into fight and left the tent) has been initially offered by the first investigator, who was one of the first people to find the tent. He stated that he found an "empty canteen flask" and dry toasts scattered on the blankets/clothing, but later the witness ( one of the members of the search team) said that the flask in fact was full, and THEY (i.e. the search team) were the ones that drunk the spirit that was in it.
Which is ironic when you think about it..
When it comes to "drug use" - that was generally unheard of in the Soviet Union.
Except for may be some areas of Central Asia.
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Old 09-24-2017, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
There was nowhere to fall from for this kind of injuries ( any kind of serious injuries actually.)
That is what you keep saying but you do not back it up with facts or proof. Here is a picture you posted: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LkdBirDrKW...lova-Tumpy.JPG To you, in your safe, coddled, home you think that this is not dangerous at all. As a former US infantryman who has spent quite of bit of time in the field in summer and winter, in sun, rain and snow and during the brightness of day and the darkest of dark nights I see several possible problems in that picture....and this is just one picture. This picture was clearly taken on a ridge. The drop off almost immediately in front of the camera looks pretty scary to me in good weather and daylight. This is the kind of thing that could eff up your day if you ran off of it in panic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Not only that - the hikers made it to that gully on their own accord and there was a lot of activities there ( according to what the search team saw,)
I have no problem with this. This does not counter anything I have stated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
and if you ask me, some of these activities were rather eerie. ( I'll try to translate what that was all about. And that was on top of what the search team already saw as unexplainable things that took place near the cedar tree - i.e. the first place where the hikers camped out after they've left their tent.)
So. If the hikers just "fell" into the gully and received this kind of injuries ( which is impossible by default,)
You keep saying it was impossible as if it were fact. This is the problem I have with you, you state things as fact and do not back them up. You think that it is impossible, I think it is quite possible and the Investigators did not say it was impossible. They actually mentioned that a fall could cause the wounds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
there was no possibility for them to move and to be involved in the kind of activities that the search team described.



Uh-hm, yeah..
Look, I already understand that you argue for the sake of proving that you are right,
No, I am trying to refute the untruths that are stated as facts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
so no matter what additional details I'll bring in, you'll disregard them and will keep on repeating your own narrative.
I only disregard opinions stated as facts and sketchy science/facts. Such as when you stated that the investigators stated that members were outside the tent urinating when this all started or when you stated that the tongue of Lyudmilla Dubinina was removed when she was alive but you did not know her eyes were also removed, when you state case was ordered closed yet have nothing to base that on other than I do not understand the Soviet Union or when you stated the Lyudmilla Dubinina's body was not found in water....which pictures clearly counter. Really if you would stick to the facts I would not counter anything because I think the facts speak for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
But I keep on adding material to this thread, because other people might be interested in this case, so forgive me if I'll start ignoring you here and there.
I am not surprised. You clearly have no problem ignoring things that do not fit what you wish to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

*Sigh.* That's not what I was arguing about - the English Wiki sayas that she was "lying face down in the creek" which is not true - the photo clearly shows that she was standing on her knees.
This is semantics and is a rather boorish argument. In this case stating lying face down is correct usage of English and beyond that does not change anything about her being found in water. You stating she was "Standing on her knees" is actually less accurate IMHO but since it changes nothing I would ignore it. To say what you are trying to say I would say "kneeling" or in this case I would say "Was found on her knees in a creek with the front of her body and face in the water. But you expect perfection when it counters what you wish to believe and accept anything that supports it without filter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

The viciousness of her injuries of unknown origin ( while she was still alive,) makes some think that her "oral diaphragm" and eyes were removed as well, particularly taking in consideration that she had blood in her stomach.
"Makes some believe", "Ancient Alien Theorists believe".....etc... Have no meaning to me. But if you wish to say such things that "people believe" you should state it as such and not as if it is part of the case files. When you mix the two without reference this is a little sketchy to say the least and I think a lot of interest in this case is fueled by misinformation.
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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[quote=erasure;49606582]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post

Why would people that ordered to close the case would indicate it in the files?
You are obviously clueless of what the Soviet state was all about.
First I do not appreciate your back handed insult. I was part of the Army that defeated, and caused the fall of the Soviet State. I received a medal for it. Soviets and Russians are not more intelligent than Americans. Also the Soviet State did have written orders. If you are going to state that the investigator was ORDERED to close the case I am going to ask what makes you believe that. I feel that is fair. Saying things like "You do not understand" is a cop out. If you believe that they were ordered to close the case say "I believe they were ordered to close the case". Do not state it as FACT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
No, the specific Soviet functionary of the region (Ivanov stated his name and his position ( which could have been easily checked) ) ordered him to close it.
OH, so nobody ordered it to be closed. Well that is a turn of events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
Everyone in this situation would guess ( and rightfully so,) that this particular person was following the commands of his superiors.
See, superiors are actually specific people. This counters what you JUST stated. Also you add things again "Everyone in this situation would guess ( and rightfully so,)". Guesses are not facts. IMHO his is the problem with this case, the added speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
( Interestingly enough, I followed the link on Russian wiki - this man seems to be a prominent member of the Communist party - he is in the Wiki as well.
Wait, earlier you stated there was no talk of UFO's at this time in the Soviet Union. Then we have an article that talks about it and now you are stating Soviet Officials are asking about them..... Also "seems to be" is a low standard of evidence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I would make another guess that the order came from Moscow, since down there they were aware of the case as well, judging by the fact that they've requested the drawings of the UFO made by Mansi to be sent to them. Not to mention that some pages re missing from the file all together. I see the numerous
Your guesses and opinions are not facts. If you wish to state them you should at least tell us about yourself since I would be interested in what in your education and experience makes you a good source.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
mentioning of it.



It IS open by now ( more or less,) otherwise how would I know all these things - I mean how they'd end up on the internet sites?
It's still kept in the archives of the Sverdlovsk region, and has a "limited access, " with the permission of the Public Prosecution office of that region.
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:39 PM
 
13,817 posts, read 12,605,948 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
That is what you keep saying but you do not back it up with facts or proof. Here is a picture you posted: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-LkdBirDrKW...lova-Tumpy.JPG To you, in your safe, coddled, home you think that this is not dangerous at all. As a former US infantryman who has spent quite of bit of time in the field in summer and winter, in sun, rain and snow and during the brightness of day and the darkest of dark nights I see several possible problems in that picture....and this is just one picture. This picture was clearly taken on a ridge. The drop off almost immediately in front of the camera looks pretty scary to me in good weather and daylight. This is the kind of thing that could eff up your day if you ran off of it in panic.
The proof is in the opinion of the investigator and the pathologist first of all. If they keep on talking about Thibeaux falling from his own height, it's telling me right there that they don't believe that the kind of injuries they witness are compatible with anything and everything they see there.
So here it is one time from the investigator's letter; ( I took it from this site; I don't get into all the different theories different people pursue, I just follow the statements made by the investigator and pathologist.
So what is obvious to me is that if qualified people look at the place and look at injuries and things clearly do not ad up - it's not a "fall." If it were a fall and compatible injuries, then as in case of the first five people, they'd conclude that the death came as "natural," not "forcible" as it's stated in autopsy.

( Sorry I use a translator and then tweak the text a bit.)
****

"The photo shows how extensive damage was inflicted on Zolotareva and Dubinina. Leo Nikitich Ivanov in his letter reveals to us the mechanisms of their application: "The sensation occurred when in the conditions of the Sverdlovsk morgue we carried out an autopsy of these corpses." Dubinina, Thibault Brignol and Zolotarev had extensive internal injuries incompatible with life , Luda Dubinina, for example, had broken ribs 2, 3, 4, 5 on the left and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 were broken on the right. One fragment of the rib even penetrated into the heart .Zolotarev had 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ribs broken.
Notice, all this without visible external injuries. Such damage, as I described, usually happens when a directed large force acts on a person, for example, a car at high speed. But such damage can not be obtained from a fall from its own height. In the vicinity of Mount Otorten and the surrounding area there were boulders and stones of various configurations covered with snow, but they were not on the way of tourists (remember the pattern of the tracks), and naturally, nobody was throwning these stones into the tourists. There were no external bruises. Consequently, there was a directed force that acted selectively on individual people, avoiding the others. "
Re: Damage to Nikolai Thibaut.
Vozrozhdenny about the injury to Thibaut: "In conclusion, it is stated that the head injuries in Thibault could have been the result of a throw, fall or drop of the body." I do not believe that these injuries could be obtained by Thibaut from his own height, ie, that he slipped and hit his head.The massive, multi-fragmentary, depressed and very deep fracture can come as the result of body being thrown away by a car moving at high speed, or because of some other transport trauma. "

Quote:
I have no problem with this. This does not counter anything I have stated.
How come it doesn't counter "anything you've said?"
If they received these deadly injuries when getting into the gully, they couldn't move any more, they couldn't participate in any activities, which they did. And the last but not least - what these four were running away from, in panic ( I quote you here; "This is the kind of thing that could eff up your day if you ran off of it in panic."

Quote:
You keep saying it was impossible as if it were fact. This is the problem I have with you, you state things as fact and do not back them up. You think that it is impossible, I think it is quite possible and the Investigators did not say it was impossible. They actually mentioned that a fall could cause the wounds.
The pathologist to be precise, not investigator. He made this comparison, when asked about the nature of Thibeaux's head injury. That it could be hit against the rock if he'd be pushed with force. But he never mentioned a "fall" as possible explanation for the injuries of two other members of the team. He compared their injuries to the result of a car crush, not fall.

No, I am trying to refute the untruths that are stated as facts.

Quote:
I only disregard opinions stated as facts and sketchy science/facts. Such as when you stated that the investigators stated that members were outside the tent urinating
Actually now I see that this fact was stated in the first radiogram, sent by the first search team, when they found the tent.

Quote:
when this all started or when you stated that the tongue of Lyudmilla Dubinina was removed when she was alive but you did not know her eyes were also removed,
Of course I knew it. What I didn't remember, that one more person missed his eyes too. Do I need to repeat it?


Quote:
I am not surprised. You clearly have no problem ignoring things that do not fit what you wish to believe.
This is semantics and is a rather boorish argument. In this case stating lying face down is correct usage of English and beyond that does not change anything about her being found in water. You stating she was "Standing on her knees" is actually less accurate IMHO but since it changes nothing I would ignore it. To say what you are trying to say I would say "kneeling" or in this case I would say "Was found on her knees in a creek with the front of her body and face in the water. But you expect perfection when it counters what you wish to believe and accept anything that supports it without filter.
Let me describe her position exactly.
She was found standing on her knees, resting her head against the ledge of the waterfall, so the water was actually running over the back of her head.
I hope this helps. As for "kneeling" - this is the meaning of the word; "be in or assume a position in which the body is supported by a knee or the knees, as when praying or showing submission."
So as you can see, this word has certain connotation. I don't know why exactly she was on her knees when she died - whether it was slumping of her body or what. Hence I didn't use "kneeling."
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Old 09-24-2017, 08:56 PM
 
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[quote=Old Guard;49613621]
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

First I do not appreciate your back handed insult. I was part of the Army that defeated, and caused the fall of the Soviet State. I received a medal for it.
American army has little to do with it; American money and the armament race - that's more like it.

Quote:
Soviets and Russians are not more intelligent than Americans. Also the Soviet State did have written orders. If you are going to state that the investigator was ORDERED to close the case I am going to ask what makes you believe that. I feel that is fair. Saying things like "You do not understand" is a cop out. If you believe that they were ordered to close the case say "I believe they were ordered to close the case". Do not state it as FACT.
It's a fact, stated in Wikipedia. Even the name of the person who issued the order is stated.
Why should I not believe that it's a fact?


Quote:
Wait, earlier you stated there was no talk of UFO's at this time in the Soviet Union. Then we have an article that talks about it and now you are stating Soviet Officials are asking about them.....
This case was a huge exception in each and every sense of it, that's why it's still widely discussed in Russia.


Quote:
Also "seems to be" is a low standard of evidence.
I was too lazy to read his whole biography in Wiki.
So yes, he was a prominent member of the communist party and had a visible position in Sverdlovsk region ( where the events took place.)

Quote:
Your guesses and opinions are not facts. If you wish to state them you should at least tell us about yourself since I would be interested in what in your education and experience makes you a good source.
What makes me a good source?
My ability to read the original files in original language.

What makes YOU good source in this particular case?
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
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[quote=erasure;49620927]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post

American army has little to do with it; American money and the armament race - that's more like it.
We did not get money, nukes, land people on the moon, fight and win a global world war in Europe and the Pacific, get more working rovers on mars and create this Internet that you are now using by being stupid. Even the current Russian economy is similar to that of Italy IIRC. And to top it all off I believe you moved to the West and do not live in Russia now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


It's a fact, stated in Wikipedia. Even the name of the person who issued the order is stated.
Why should I not believe that it's a fact?
Do they have a copy of the order? I really am skeptical of what I read on the Internet without sources. YMMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post



This case was a huge exception in each and every sense of it, that's why it's still widely discussed in Russia.
I think it is an interesting case on the surface then when you find out more it is a huge let down. YMMV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


I was too lazy to read his whole biography in Wiki.
So yes, he was a prominent member of the communist party and had a visible position in Sverdlovsk region ( where the events took place.)
This does not make me trust you any more than I have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post


What makes me a good source?
My ability to read the original files in original language.
I agree, being able to read the files in the original language is good. The problem is the stuff you add to the report. Other people can read Russian and until you I have not seen anyone state that the investigator stated that members of the party were outside whizzing when the tragic event started or that Lyudmilla Dubinina's tongue was removed while she was alive. To be honest this thread seems to have no traction compared to the last one. I guess most people do not seem interested in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What makes YOU good source in this particular case?
The fact that I do not add, ignore or remove information when it is convenient to do so or integrity.
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Old 09-25-2017, 06:23 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,768 posts, read 2,593,977 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
( Sorry I use a translator and then tweak the text a bit.)
****

"The photo shows how extensive damage was inflicted on Zolotareva and Dubinina. Leo Nikitich Ivanov in his letter reveals to us the mechanisms of their application: "The sensation occurred when in the conditions of the Sverdlovsk morgue we carried out an autopsy of these corpses." Dubinina, Thibault Brignol and Zolotarev had extensive internal injuries incompatible with life , Luda Dubinina, for example, had broken ribs 2, 3, 4, 5 on the left and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 were broken on the right. One fragment of the rib even penetrated into the heart .Zolotarev had 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ribs broken.
Notice, all this without visible external injuries. Such damage, as I described, usually happens when a directed large force acts on a person, for example, a car at high speed. But such damage can not be obtained from a fall from its own height. In the vicinity of Mount Otorten and the surrounding area there were boulders and stones of various configurations covered with snow, but they were not on the way of tourists (remember the pattern of the tracks), and naturally, nobody was throwning these stones into the tourists. There were no external bruises. Consequently, there was a directed force that acted selectively on individual people, avoiding the others. "
Re: Damage to Nikolai Thibaut.
Vozrozhdenny about the injury to Thibaut: "In conclusion, it is stated that the head injuries in Thibault could have been the result of a throw, fall or drop of the body." I do not believe that these injuries could be obtained by Thibaut from his own height, ie, that he slipped and hit his head.The massive, multi-fragmentary, depressed and very deep fracture can come as the result of body being thrown away by a car moving at high speed, or because of some other transport trauma. "
Is this word for word form the file? Particularly the bolded part? And are you saying that there was a car involved? Because you seem very literal when it suits what you wish to believe but very loosey goosey when you feel something supports what you wish to say...
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Old 09-25-2017, 08:48 PM
 
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[quote=Old Guard;49630695]
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

We did not get money, nukes, land people on the moon, fight and win a global world war in Europe and the Pacific, get more working rovers on mars and create this Internet that you are now using by being stupid. Even the current Russian economy is similar to that of Italy IIRC.
Pls. don't turn this thread into the political one; when I want to talk politics ( and I often do) I do it in "Europe's" section and I did express my opinions over and over there, so if you are interested in my opinion(s) on political matters, you can find them all there.

Quote:
And to top it all off I believe you moved to the West and do not live in Russia now?
I don't live in Russia like half of my life - I left the country still during Soviet times, so obviously I am well familiar with the system.

Quote:
Do they have a copy of the order? I really am skeptical of what I read on the Internet without sources. YMMV.
I think it is an interesting case on the surface then when you find out more it is a huge let down. YMMV.

This does not make me trust you any more than I have.
You don't need to trust ME.
Find anyone speaking Russian ( or better else - put Russian WIKI version into translator,) and you'll see what I am talking about. What you see on English sites is the same short regurgitated version void of details, ( plus speculations based on this short version,) because no one apparently wants to translate this thing in details, and I can see why now, lol)))
So I guess it's the other way around - this cse is not all that interesting on a surface, but the more details you learn, the more mind-boggling it becomes.

Quote:
I agree, being able to read the files in the original language is good. The problem is the stuff you add to the report. Other people can read Russian and until you I have not seen anyone state that the investigator stated that members of the party were outside whizzing when the tragic event started
Then these people only read short regurgitated version in Russian - same kind you read in English. They didn't see the files, or even Russian wiki for this matter. However this was the first clue that made the search team think that something scared the tourists off, and one of them ( being outside) sent them the signal. That's why they jumped out of there as fast as they could ( even without shoes) and took off.
And this "something" was apparently scary enough, that later they were climbing on the tree trying to look in the direction of their abandoned tent, yet not coming back to it.


Quote:
or that Lyudmilla Dubinina's tongue was removed while she was alive.
No as I told you those were already speculations, based on the analysis of the autopsies. I can't figure out why back in 2012-2013 this case brought a wave of popularity in Russia, so there are gazillion of sites out there ( even forums dedicated to this specific case,) detailed analysis of the autopsy including, even from the point of view of the modern science ( which is obviously more advanced by now.) So when people with medical background analysed that autopsy, they've put in more plain terms what this or that pathological description meant. And as I've read on one such sites now, they are saying that based on the autopsy of such and such ( one of the students found near the cedar tree, who presumably died of hypothermia,) that he had most likely swelling in his lungs, that the "grey foam" coming out of his mouth indicated during the autopsy. Just an example. And of course when they analysed the autopsy of Dubinina, they made a guess that judging by the missing "oral diaphragm" ( not just tongue,) and presence of blood in her stomach, it was removed while she was still alive.


Quote:
To be honest this thread seems to have no traction compared to the last one. I guess most people do not seem interested in it.
What "traction" do you need here? I've stated on another thread why I find this particular case ( that was not debunked, the most interesting paranormal mystery." You started arguing against it. That's why I have to explain WHY exactly I find it to be the "most interesting."
In fact, I sometimes think that it's related ( has connection) with the the case of the TWA 800 somehow.

Quote:
The fact that I do not add, ignore or remove information when it is convenient to do so or integrity.
That's because you don't have much to "add" or "remove" I think, since you are familiar only with the "generic version" of this event.
But if you can find someone who can translate you from Russian, I already have quiet a few pages that you can look at - be my guest.

P.S. Oh, and I finally found the original, FULL version of the letter of the investigator ( l.Ivanov) that he wrote to the local ( Kustanai) news-paper on 22nd and 24th of November of 1990. ( Before I saw only the excerpts from it, that I translated here and there.) It's fairly descriptive ( and long,) AND I see now while reading it, that the government in Moscow was definitely aware of the case, ( in fact Khrushchev himself was notified about it.) So as you can see I am doing my job as I go))) The more I dig, the more I learn)))
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