U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Unexplained Mysteries and Paranormal
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 09-25-2017, 10:05 PM
 
14,276 posts, read 13,030,638 times
Reputation: 6620

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
Is this word for word form the file? Particularly the bolded part? And are you saying that there was a car involved? Because you seem very literal when it suits what you wish to believe but very loosey goosey when you feel something supports what you wish to say...
No. Remember, I put the whole thing in the translator? It didn't do a very good job in this case, and I was in a hurry to wrap it up. So no, not "pattern of the tracks," but rather "path of the tracks."
Therefore NO CAR was involved. This word was used by the pathologist only for comparison, for a purpose to describe the kind of injuries they ( the students) have received.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-26-2017, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,784 posts, read 2,716,647 times
Reputation: 5850
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
There was nowhere to fall from for this kind of injuries ( any kind of serious injuries actually.)
According to page 229 of the book Dead Mountain: The Untold True Story of the Dyatlov Pass Incident By Donnie Eichar who visited the site there is a 24 foot —at an incline between 50 and 60 degrees— on one side of the ravine where the bodies were found. So there is that.
Quote:
Official statement for closing the case given by Junior Counselor of Justice and Criminal Prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region, Lev Ivanov: The deaths of the expedition members were due to a series of mistakes by Dyatlov. On 1 February he began the ascent to the summit at 3 PM, even though he knew about the difficulty of the terrain. Furthermore – and this was Dyatlov’s next mistake – he chose a line 500 m to the left of the planned pass that lies between Peak 1079 and Peak 880. So the group found themselves on the eastern slope of Peak 1079. They used what was left of the daylight to ascend to the summit in strong winds (which are typical for this area) and low temperatures of minus 25 degrees centigrade. Dyatlov found himself in bad conditions for the night, so he decided to pitch his tent on the slope of 1079 so as to start in the morning without adding the distance from the forest (~1 km) to the remaining trek of about 10 km to the summit. Considering the absence of external injuries to the bodies or signs of a fight, as well as the abandonment of all the valuable resources, adding the conclusions of the medical examinations for the causes of the deaths, it has to be concluded that the cause of their deaths was calamity or overwhelming force.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-26-2017, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,784 posts, read 2,716,647 times
Reputation: 5850
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
The proof is in the opinion of the investigator and the pathologist first of all. If they keep on talking about Thibeaux falling from his own height, it's telling me right there that they don't believe that the kind of injuries they witness are compatible with anything and everything they see there.
So here it is one time from the investigator's letter; ( I took it from this site; I don't get into all the different theories different people pursue, I just follow the statements made by the investigator and pathologist.
So what is obvious to me is that if qualified people look at the place and look at injuries and things clearly do not ad up - it's not a "fall." If it were a fall and compatible injuries, then as in case of the first five people, they'd conclude that the death came as "natural," not "forcible" as it's stated in autopsy.

( Sorry I use a translator and then tweak the text a bit.)
****

"The photo shows how extensive damage was inflicted on Zolotareva and Dubinina. Leo Nikitich Ivanov in his letter reveals to us the mechanisms of their application: "The sensation occurred when in the conditions of the Sverdlovsk morgue we carried out an autopsy of these corpses." Dubinina, Thibault Brignol and Zolotarev had extensive internal injuries incompatible with life , Luda Dubinina, for example, had broken ribs 2, 3, 4, 5 on the left and 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 were broken on the right. One fragment of the rib even penetrated into the heart .Zolotarev had 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 ribs broken.
Notice, all this without visible external injuries. Such damage, as I described, usually happens when a directed large force acts on a person, for example, a car at high speed. But such damage can not be obtained from a fall from its own height. In the vicinity of Mount Otorten and the surrounding area there were boulders and stones of various configurations covered with snow, but they were not on the way of tourists (remember the pattern of the tracks), and naturally, nobody was throwning these stones into the tourists. There were no external bruises. Consequently, there was a directed force that acted selectively on individual people, avoiding the others. "
Re: Damage to Nikolai Thibaut.
What I am asking is the bolded part, this: (remember the pattern of the tracks) In the original file or was this added by you?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-26-2017, 09:32 PM
 
14,276 posts, read 13,030,638 times
Reputation: 6620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
According to page 229 of the book Dead Mountain: The Untold True Story of the Dyatlov Pass Incident By Donnie Eichar who visited the site there is a 24 foot —at an incline between 50 and 60 degrees— on one side of the ravine where the bodies were found. So there is that.

I looked the book and author up - this is a commercial project. Some hot shot with a *hot plot.* He "finally reveals the true story of what happened at Dead Mountain." " Yeah right.
According to Eichar himself - "how it could be 50 years, and no one understands what led to their death?"
Well it could happen in two cases;
A. After the students didn't come back, no one went to investigate their death.
and B. - After extensive investigation things didn't add up to give any viable explanation to their death.
But lo and behold, here comes Donnie Eichar fifty years later and figures it all out. Not only that - he writes a *brilliant book* and makes a bit of money off of it.
So the point being, if the investigator and pathologist would have found those wounds CONSISTENT with what they saw in the ravine, some Donnie Eichar didn't have to travel there 50 years later.

http://deadmountainbook.com/


Quote:
Official statement for closing the case given by Junior Counselor of Justice and Criminal Prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region, Lev Ivanov: The deaths of the expedition members were due to a series of mistakes by Dyatlov. On 1 February he began the ascent to the summit at 3 PM, even though he knew about the difficulty of the terrain. Furthermore – and this was Dyatlov’s next mistake – he chose a line 500 m to the left of the planned pass that lies between Peak 1079 and Peak 880. So the group found themselves on the eastern slope of Peak 1079. They used what was left of the daylight to ascend to the summit in strong winds (which are typical for this area) and low temperatures of minus 25 degrees centigrade. Dyatlov found himself in bad conditions for the night, so he decided to pitch his tent on the slope of 1079 so as to start in the morning without adding the distance from the forest (~1 km) to the remaining trek of about 10 km to the summit.
This is correct, comparing the initial plans of the group and the location where they ended up, Igor Dyatlov made a mistake. But it's not like they travelled to the North Pole and ended up at the South Pole. So they found themselves on the Eastern slope of the peak instead of the Western one, but does it mean that they had to die because of that, really? No, what led them to their death, was leaving the tent. So the question remains, why did they do it? And would it matter whether it was the Western or Eastern slope of the mountain, or was that mountain a wrong place to be that night no matter what slope?

Quote:
Considering the absence of external injuries to the bodies or signs of a fight, as well as the abandonment of all the valuable resources, adding the conclusions of the medical examinations for the causes of the deaths, it has to be concluded that the cause of their deaths was calamity or overwhelming force.
What about the INTERNAL ones, that were clearly stated during the autopsy?
( See, I am trying to explain why this "closure" was done in a haste, and was in fact ordered, against the investigator's will, who felt really bad for the families of the deceased, that didn't receive any satisfactory explanations, no closure to the death of their children.) And that's what Ivanov wrote about in his detailed letter to the local newspaper in 1990.

Last edited by erasure; 09-26-2017 at 10:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-26-2017, 09:35 PM
 
14,276 posts, read 13,030,638 times
Reputation: 6620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
What I am asking is the bolded part, this: (remember the pattern of the tracks) In the original file or was this added by you?
It's not the "file" already - I was quoting that detailed letter of the investigator that he wrote to the newspaper in 1990.
Do you need to see the whole version of it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2017, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,784 posts, read 2,716,647 times
Reputation: 5850
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
I looked the book and author up - this is a commercial project. Some hot shot with a *hot plot.* He "finally reveals the true story of what happened at Dead Mountain." " Yeah right.
I am not saying that his conclusion is correct I am just using data provided by someone who has actually been to the site to counter your claim that there was nowhere to fall from.

He stated that at the site there is a 24 foot precipice —at an incline between 50 and 60 degrees— on one side of the ravine where the bodies were found. I see no reason for him to lie about that AND it is consistent with pictures I have seen taken by the investigator or search team. Even the picture you posted shows what could be a pretty dangerous drop.

While I do not believe that Mr. Eichar has solved it I am more intrigued by the people who lie about simple facts of the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
According to Eichar himself - "how it could be 50 years, and no one understands what led to their death?"
Well it could happen in two cases;
A. After the students didn't come back, no one went to investigate their death.
and B. - After extensive investigation things didn't add up to give any viable explanation to their death.
You weave in and out of things so fast that it is hard to pin you down.

1. The unexplained part are the events, or actually event, that led to their death which is why they left the tent so ill prepared and in apparently such a hurry that they seemingly cut the tent to get out.

2. Their deaths are explained, we know how each member died.

But people have been dying for literally hundreds of thousands of years without people knowing what led to their death and it still happens to this day. It is not that unusual at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
But lo and behold, here comes Donnie Eichar fifty years later and figures it all out. Not only that - he writes a *brilliant book* and makes a bit of money off of it.
He is just filling a niche, that does not mean that his research is wrong. I see no evidence that he is lying or fudging facts, he just comes up with a theory. I do no expect anyone to ever find out why they left the tent and died.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So the point being, if the investigator and pathologist would have found those wounds CONSISTENT with what they saw in the ravine, some Donnie Eichar didn't have to travel there 50 years later.
I am not saying that his conclusion is correct I am just using data provided by someone who has actually been to the site to counter your claim that there was nowhere to fall from.

He stated that at the site there is a 24 foot precipice —at an incline between 50 and 60 degrees— on one side of the ravine where the bodies were found. I see no reason for him to lie about that AND it is consistent with pictures I have seen taken by the investigator or search team. Even the picture you posted shows what could be a pretty dangerous drop.

While I do not believe that Mr. Eichar has solved it I am more intrigued by the people who lie about simple facts of the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post

http://deadmountainbook.com/




This is correct, comparing the initial plans of the group and the location where they ended up, Igor Dyatlov made a mistake. But it's not like they travelled to the North Pole and ended up at the South Pole. So they found themselves on the Eastern slope of the peak instead of the Western one, but does it mean that they had to die because of that, really? No, what led them to their death, was leaving the tent.
It could of been what led them to leaving the tent in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
So the question remains, why did they do it? And would it matter whether it was the Western or Eastern slope of the mountain, or was that mountain a wrong place to be that night no matter what slope?
Leaving their tent in such in ill equipped manner is indeed what led to their death. I do not think it would have mattered at all if they were on East, West, South or North slope. This is why the speculation about their deaths being supernatural or part of some conspiracy theory are IMHO so weird. We know why they died, we know that their actions led to their death and there is nothing unusual about them dying because of that. So people come along 50 years later and focus on this and question everything.

If you want to prove me wrong take the original trek, with equipment and food similar to what they had, at the same time of year and then on the same night camp at the same location and at 2:00 AM just get up in your underwear and run a kilometer or two and when you come back alive and explain the situation we will know something unusual and unexpected happened to these people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
What about the INTERNAL ones, that were clearly stated during the autopsy?
Apparently they were not important enough for anyone to take into consideration in the final report. Also I believe you are taking them out of context which is why you are amazed that they are left out of the report and I look at a report where they knew the answers going in and did a quick, serviceable, investigation and closed it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
( See, I am trying to explain why this "closure" was done in a haste, and was in fact ordered, against the investigator's will,
This is just your speculation and I do not base my opinion on such things over speculation, especially when you have been a little less than honest with me so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
who felt really bad for the families of the deceased, that didn't receive any satisfactory explanations, no closure to the death of their children.) And that's what Ivanov wrote about in his detailed letter to the local newspaper in 1990.
I have no reason of knowing why Ivanov wrote a letter to the local newspaper. I believe he died being a die hard UFO believer so perhaps that was to further his own agenda?

I do know that he was not a doctor or a medical investigator and that he is clearly either lying in his report or in his article written 30 years later.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-29-2017, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
4,784 posts, read 2,716,647 times
Reputation: 5850
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
It's not the "file" already - I was quoting that detailed letter of the investigator that he wrote to the newspaper in 1990.
Do you need to see the whole version of it?
OK, Thank you.

30 years is a lot of time to a tool as imperfect as the human brain.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2017, 12:14 AM
 
14,276 posts, read 13,030,638 times
Reputation: 6620
^
To begin with, I checked on people Donnie Eichar dealt with, when he came to Ural.

This is their recent movie, devoted to the events and the "tenth" member of of the group, that survived.
What can I say watching and listening to these people?
Number one - they come across first of all as the "fan club" of Yury Yudin, the "tenth."
This is the way for these people to feel relevant to some "important events" and re-live the days of their youth, since they are all from that area and many of them belonged either to the same hiking club as Dyatlov group did, or something similar. On top of that, they sound as typical "die hard Soviet youth," and of course they have their own theory of what happened to Dyatlov's group, which is.. well, some secret Soviet weapons, that were tested in the area, and the group became the victim of it somehow.
I mean these are Soviet people at heart, so these kind of theories should be expected from them I guess.
But when it comes to REAL files, Yury Yudin ( who was still alive in 2013) mumbles something uncertain, which gives an impression that he is not well-familiar with them, even though he played a big part in investigation. With other words, a nice man, but of no particular sophistication.
These people confirmed to me anything and everything I ever thought about B. Yeltsin, who was a disastrous president of Russia back in the 90ies, and who hailed from that particular area - he was the native of it. (That's the reason L. Ivanov was asking him to reopen investigation, but to no avail.)
So that's briefly about the group/person in charge who invited Donnie Eichar ( you can see his picture somewhere in this video too.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUU8pUVUMHI

If you ask me, not the best source of information, that's why Donnie Eichar had such liberty to create his own theories ( plus I was really not thrilled with his style of writing - I saw the sample of it.)

Now from what I know, the best WRITING on a subject comes from someone named Alexey Rakitin, who comes up with even crazier theories ( with KGB and god knows what other international organization involved,) so I don't take it seriously, HOWEVER, with that being said, he is doing an excellent job, analyzing the files ( actually he is even using the originals in his work, the kind I am familiar with.)
And since his writing is based on close scrutiny of original files, I found couple of excerpts that explain rather nicely why the injuries of the hikers found in the ravine were not result of any fall, ( which is one of your major arguments with me as far as I can see.)
So it was easier for me to translate these excerpts where everything is summed up, than translate few files, in order to convey the picture/scene that investigators encountered.

Last edited by erasure; 09-30-2017 at 12:52 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2017, 12:29 AM
 
14,276 posts, read 13,030,638 times
Reputation: 6620
So this is from Alexey Rakitin's "Death following the footprints.."

( I hope the translation is OK - I used the google translator yet again and tweaked the translation when needed.)

"Throughout April of 1959, the search group in the area of ​​Kholat-Syakhyl continued to check the gradually decreasing snow cover in the forests of the Lozva Valley and along the banks of its tributaries. Along the Lozva, the search team surveyed more than 1 km. The search was unsuccessful. The only conclusion that seemed to be logical in this situation, was that the missing members of the tourist group left the area of ​​Holat-Sahyl and while being able to remain active, they covered several kilometers.
This assumption was indirectly confirmed by the consideration that missing tourists were to be dressed much better than those who had already been found (this idea was based on an approximate calculation of the wardrobe of the group and its distribution among the participants in the campaign, because all the clothes of the deceased and the things found in the tent , have been accurately described and taken into account!). However, no one in the search team could say anything about which direction the missing hickers could go. It was logical to guess that their rout would be directed towards the storage, but the storage remained untouched!
It is hard to say in which direction the search operation would develop further, if not for strange discoveries that began in early May. In the area of ​​the cedar, near which the dead Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were earlier found, from the melting snow the broken fir branches started coming on surface, previously hidden from the eyes of the search group. These branches were not laying chaotically, but seemed to form some kind of path, leading in the south-west direction. It looked as if several young fir trees had been dragged along that direction, cut down near the cedar. The same small fir tree branches began to protrude from under the snow near a ravine as well, fifty meters away from the cedar, where the peaks of young fir trees were also cut off.
Perhaps this discovery would not attract much attention of the search team, but on the morning of May 5th, one of the Mansi guides (named Kurikov), who examined this "fir tree path" with the dog, discovered in the very end of it, at the ravine, frozen in the snow ... black cotton sport pants. To be more precise, a piece of them, heavily burned and devoid of the right leg. On closer examination it turned out that the left leg had been roughly cut off with a knife.
The found garment was under a layer of snow about 10 cm thick. When in the immediate vicinity of the site where the pants were found, the search team began to scrutinize the snow piles, they were lucky to find another piece of clothing - the left half of the women's light brown wool sweater. The sweater, like the sport pants, was roughly cut in half, its right half (along with the sleeve) was missing. According to the general opinion of the searchers, the sweater was to belong to Lyudmila Dubinina.
It was logical to guess that the discovered items indicated a possible nearby presence of the bodies that have not yet been found. However, there was already too little snow remaining in the forest, and its cover could not hide the corpses. The only nearest place, capable of hiding the bodies of the deceased from the eyes of the search team, was a ravine that was located south-west of the cedar. It was already tested with the probe units in early March, but perhaps their length was insufficient?
Colonel Ortyukov decided to begin excavation of the snow in the ravine in the immediate vicinity of the place where the fir tree was cut. The selected site was about 10 m from the place where Mansi Kurikov found burned sport pants. The search team started working at about 11 am on May 5; the total excavation area was about 20 sq.m.
As the snow deepened, it grew stronger. As it turned out, a rather stormy stream of melting water flowed along the very bottom of the ravine. It was in this stream, under a thick layer of about four meters of snow, at 18:40, that a human body was found in a gray sweater. As it turned out later, it was the body of Lyudmila Dubinina.
Ortyukov immediately reported on the discovery to the headquarters of the search operation, at the same time mentioning the difficult working conditions and asking to send him 6 engineer-sapper spade shovels, 2 mining picks and soldiers in good physical shape.
Continuing to excavate the thick snow in the ravine, the search team found three other missing tourists - Zolotarev, Kolevatov and Thibault- Brignol, not far from the first discovered body.
In the same ravine, a little further away, a wooden platform was found, made out of cut young trees of small diameter. For its construction, 14 fir trees and 1 birch were used; the total cover area was determined by Ortyukov as 3 sq.m. The cover was located in the thickness of the snow at a depth of approximately about 2.5 m., i.e. noticeably lower than the level of the forest adjacent to the ravine, yet at the same time clearly not at the bottom of the ravine.
On a wooden platform few things were discovered; in particular, a woolen sweater-vest jacket, warm knitted pants with a sash (belt and bottom had torn elastic bands), the right pant leg of black sport pants found at the ravine on the morning of May 5th by Kurikov. Well, and besides that - a woolen brown sweater and ... a soldier's footwrap made from the military overcoat, with a brown braid on the end. The discovery of this last piece of the clothing confused Ortyukov to such an extent, that he even informed the operation headquarters of this, in his radiogram ("(...) the appearance of the footwrap is incomprehensible to me"), which he usually did not do before.
The footwraps of the servicemen are emerging for the second time in this investigation. The first time, we'll remind, a certain footwrap of unidentified origin was found among the belongings of the members of the group at the Ivdel airport in early March 1959. Then prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov, together with Yury Yudin compiled an inventory of the personal things delivered from the pass, and sorted them by ownership. The mysterious footwrap did not get into the files of the investigation and we know about it only from the memoirs of Yudin. There can be no doubt that the second footwrap would have also disappeared in obscurity, had the fact of its detection on the wooden platform not been recorded in Ortyukov's radiogram.
So, at last the bodies of all the members of Igor Dyatlov's group were discovered. Now all the inconsistencies and ambiguities - at least theoretically! - should have been given a logical and irrefutable explanation. However, even a superficial analysis of the finds in the ravine (and near it) not only failed to clarify the picture of what happened on the slope of Holat-Sahyl, but on the contrary, introduced new uncertainties. Let's look at the situation in the ravine as a charade and try to answer the question: "what's wrong here?"
First of all, there is no doubt that four tourists, whose bodies were found at the bottom of the ravine, were at the cedar place. Part of the young fir grove that went to the construction of the wooden platform was cut there. A few more trees were cut by them already near the ravine, just ten meters from the edge. The departure from the cedar to the ravine was logical, for it was precisely in the deep snow that the most dangerous factor, the wind, which was threatening for the freezing people, could be eliminated. But why in that case there were only four hikers in the ravine? why they were not joined by Doroshenko and Krivonischenko?
Dubinina, Zolotarev, Kolevatov and Thibault- Brignol made the platform in the thick snow in the ravine to protect themselves from the wind, and improve the thermal insulation from snow. If they really suffered from the cold and died due to hypothermia, it would be logical to find the bodies of the victims directly on the platform. However, the search team saw a different picture - all the bodies were away from the platform, at a distance, excluding the spontaneous movement over time (sliding, rolling, plunging into the snow). According to various estimates, the remoteness of the bodies of the deceased from the platform built by them was 6-10 meters. Why did the hickers leave it, when they put such an effort in gathering the branches for it?
Further on, what looked completely incomrehensible, was the manipulations of people found in the ravine with pieces of clothing. The fact that Doroshenko and Krivonischenko who died before others were stripped off of their clothing by their comrades, the investigators guessed already at the very beginning of the search. The sight of the bodies found near the fire under the cedar, clearly testified to the apparent shortage of clothing on them. Now, removed and partially cut pieces of their outerwear were found, but for some strange reason they were laying on the way to the platform and on the platform itself, but not on people who took these clothes off of the corpses. So why did the hikers, who were obviously in need of warm clothing, didn't put them on right near the fire?
After all, the fact that they needed additional clothing is beyond question - their need for this was so great that they decided to undress the bodies of the recently deceased comrades. This unpleasant procedure required from them to maximize the mobilization of will and determination to live. And what turns out: having taken hold of precious pants and sweaters, they somehow began to carry them away from the fire, losing them along the way and not being in a hurry to put them on, while on the platform. (Here, by the way, we need to make the necessary explanation: the clothes were cut not by thoughtlessness or error, but for the purpose of more convenient use in the future.)...


************************************************** *****



Concluding the description and analysis of bodily injuries inflicted on the dead members of Igor Dyatlov's group, let us summarize some results.
1) The force, the impact of which caused the death of Dubinina, Zolotarev and Thibault Brignol, was certainly very significant;
2) In the case of Zolotarev and Dubinina, one can see the surprising uniformity of both the external force influence and the damage caused by it;

3) This force acted with high precision and selectivity. Despite the different height and weight of Dubinina and Zolotarev, the external influence did not affect the collarbones of both, but at the same time it broke the second (and lower) ribs. It is also surprising that humeral bones remained intact. It is impossible to imagine that some unintended impact of the spontaneous force of nature (avalanche, fallen tree, unfortunate fall on a stone, etc.), would show such accuracy in the choice of the point of application;

4) The localization of the injury of the skull of Thibault- Brignoles comes across as a rather unusual one. A hit with a stone (or a fall on a stone) was ruled out by the forensic medical expert Vozrohdenny, when he was answering the questions of investigator Ivanov, after the results of the May examinations were added to the file. The relevant interrogation, by the way quite short and incoherent, can be found in the files. In order to give an explanation for the strange damage to the skull of Thibault, some researchers suggested that the head of the victim was hit by his camera lens, which was pressed into the skull to a depth of 2 cm during the avalanche.

The camera, however, is not a very suitable for the role of the source of impact, because no one has seen cameras with non-round lenses measuring 3 cm by 8.5 cm, but the "camera assassin" is the only explanation that at least somehow makes it possible to exclude the human factor as a source of impact on the Thibault skull. After all, all the other items that were available to the Dyatlov group (axes, aluminum mugs, etc.) were not suitable, because of the very obvious disparity with the size of the of injury.

However, as we shall see from the following, no avalanches were in picture on February 1, 1959 on the slope of the Holat-Sahyl. Besides, if Thibault were injured on the slope of the mount Kholat- Syakl, he wouldn't have survived the night evacuation to the valley of Lozva.

5) The unbiased scrutiny of the injuries described by Vozrohdenny leads to the only logical and justified conclusion about the place and time of their infliction. Dubinina, Zolotarev and Thibault- Brignol received injuries at the bottom, in the ravine region, and it happened shortly before their death. It can be said in a different way: their trauma predetermined their death, either in places where their bodies were found in May, or somewhere nearby. Assumptions according to which the hikers could be traumatized elsewhere, say, on the slope of Holat-Syahyl, can not stand any criticism, and are meaningless.
The appearance of such kind of hypotheses can be explained only by the desire of some researchers to adjust the facts to some far-fetched theories. Attempts to draw the parallels between the present case and certain historical facts, when tourists or athletes with fractures of hands, legs or ribs retained a certain mobility, do not stand up to criticism.
In the world history of sports (mountaineering in particular, ), there are indeed cases of phenomenal persistence in the enduring of pain, but they all took place with foreign athletes and are relatively recent (70ies of the 20th century and subsequent decades). Foreign climbers could successfully complete their marches with broken ribs just because they had powerful psychostimulating drugs that relieve pain and mobilize the psycho-physical capabilities of the body. Diatlov group didn't have anything of this kind, and therefore, one must be very careful with such historical parallels. And more precisely, they should be avoided simply because they are irrelevant.

6) The unusual bodily injuries of the hickers found in the ravine make us look differently at the injuries of some members of the "first five", and most of all - Doroshenko. The release of gray foam from his respiratory tract is a serious (albeit indirect) evidence of physical violence that he experienced shortly before the onset of death. Perhaps, it was this violence that provoked his death (at least accelerated it). What could be the source of this specific impact, will be analyzed in the appropriate place of this review.


P.S. The next thing I plan to translate is Ivanov's letter, (which is rather lengthy.)
Even though I'd love to find some good material ( in addition to the material above) on what exactly the investigators found at the *second* scene - i.e. near the cedar tree, where they found the first few bodies.

Last edited by erasure; 09-30-2017 at 01:17 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 09-30-2017, 12:37 PM
 
14,276 posts, read 13,030,638 times
Reputation: 6620
P.S. P.S. Thanks lord I finally found the picture from the place of event, that shows the ravine and the place where the initial three bodies were found ( Dyatlov, Kholmogorova, Slobodin.) This picture includes the location of the wooden platform that the remained 4 presumably have built. ( It's in the left side of the pic, "настил" and close to it, the word "кедр" identifies the cedar tree, where all hikers lodged and started the fire (or so they think that all of them were initially there, after they've left the tent. )
It was difficult for me to picture "an incline between 50 and 60 degrees— on one side of the ravine" yet understand at the same time that the investigation didn't see anything consistent with the "fall" - crushed ribs and skull, particularly that people in question were relatively close to the wooden platform they built. ( I mean there was nowhere to "fall from" at that point in time, when they were already IN the ravine, and just moved away from their platform. My guess is - they were running yet again from something, but that's my guess of course..)

http://dverisi.narod.ru/vid.jpg

(And as I've said, I'll try to find more material on what took place near the cedar tree and what exactly left the investigators puzzled.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Unexplained Mysteries and Paranormal
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top