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Old 10-04-2017, 08:50 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
The generic term for all those behaviors is play, and both mammals other than humans and birds engage in it. Amphibians don't (not clear yet if some reptiles might engage in play). Whether the octopus, the most intelligent invertebrate, engages in play isn't clear yet. Here is a good example of a raven engaging in play behavior:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...3&&FORM=VDRVRV

Animals don't evolve specific play behaviors like kicking a pebble or whistling, but they do seem to inherit a tendency to engage in behavior with no immediate payoff. But there are payoffs for play behavior for the individual:

Rehearsal of behaviors (the predator giving living prey to her offspring to practice catching and killing, or the human hunter gatherer children playing at warfare and hunting)

Redirection of aggression that might otherwise harm the social fabric of the community (dogs or cats play fighting)

Bonding (communal dances, card games, rituals)

Relatively safe way for the brain to get the reward of the adrenaline rush that comes from risk taking behavior (like the raven in the video above, or humans skydiving - or gambling).

The closest thing we have to an alien intelligence here on earth, the octopus, appears to engage in play behavior, though this is still controversial.

The cost of the kind of play we see in humans and animals is relatively low (except when a behavior becomes addictive) and has value to the organism as noted above, whereas sending obscenely expensive spacecraft across many light years to build mud brick pyramids on another world has an enormous cost if it's for a bit of "fun".

To say we cannot begin to grasp what might be going on in the "psyche" of an alien intelligence is to claim that understanding aliens would be beyond science and thus beyond human ability to make any kind of sense out of their behavior. I don't buy it (though it's made for some great science fiction: The Stalker and Solaris by Tarkovsky, and apparently the new movie Arrival and its two planned sequels).
When squirrels play, I KNOW they're playing (ferociously attacking a stick over and over), but play like this also keeps their muscles loose and toned for the real thing.

And I read the octopus article. Fascinating; thanks.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:34 PM
Status: "Semi-Retired" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC (as of 9.27.18)
3,998 posts, read 3,205,813 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
I make no such claim. I do claim that current science has no idea what goes on in the mind of an alien because we have no aliens to examine. We cannot examine what we do not have. We cannot assume that life on the planet Zardozzobelladonnanikto is anything remotely like life on Earth. It might be. It might not be. We don't know.
We can't talk about aliens we don't have to examine. However, we can ask: if there are intelligent aliens out there, what does science tell us about what their behavior would look like? If there is intelligent life out there, what equipment does it need as an organism to express its intelligence in what we'd call a technological way?

If you assume behaviors develop because they have survival value, then you certainly can make statements about the limits of what might be going on in such a mind. An organism whose genetic makeup causes it to be irresistibly attracted to things that will instantaneously kill it isn't going to have much of a future.

Quote:
Wasn't it St. Thomas Aquinas who was once asked if he would baptize a saytr? He replied, "Show me a satyr, then we'll talk."

I have much the same response when it comes to aliens. Until we have some aliens to examine or ask, it's all speculation and we cannot claim our assumptions as facts.
I don't think you're getting the points I'm trying to make, I suspect I"m not doing a good job of communicating what I'm trying to say.

It's speculation -- but that's what this forum's about, and even the head of the Vatican Observatory has speculated about the nature of alien life.

Last edited by Vasily; 10-06-2017 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:16 PM
 
Location: bend oregon
891 posts, read 772,516 times
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alien makes more sense then most stories. the more you think about stuff the dumber you become jk
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Maine
14,837 posts, read 19,526,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
We can't talk about aliens we don't have to examine. However, we can ask: if there are intelligent aliens out there, what does science tell us about what their behavior would look like? If there is intelligent life out there, what equipment does it need as an organism to express its intelligence in what we'd call a technological way?
All good points, and I agree, with a couple of additions.

First, when it comes to what science tells us about life, we really only have the Earth as a frame of reference. Life might have evolved along completely different lines around a distant star. Or it might not. We simply don't know.

Which is why I totally agree that there is zero evidence there was any alien involvement in the construction of the pyramids or anything else on Earth. But I take issue with the statement that aliens would have no reason for doing so. We simply have no idea why aliens might do such things. Perhaps to them a mud-brick pyramid would be the alien equivalent of a bird house or an ant farm? Again, or maybe not. We simply have no way of knowing.

Second, any alien life advanced enough to leave its star and visit Earth has evolved far beyond our own level of civilization, so again, we have no real frame of reference for what might motivate such beings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
If you assume behaviors develop because they have survival value...
I do not assume that. Some behaviors do. But all? Nope. Does chewing gum or playing video games or having a separate spoon for soup and separate fork for salad have a survival value? Does being glued into our smartphones 24/7? Does arguing about aliens on the Internet?

Nope. "Survival of the fittest" does not explain everything. It is not a sort of biological unified field theory that we can use to explain all behavior, psychology, spirituality, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
... then you certainly can make statements about the limits of what might be going on in such a mind. An organism whose genetic makeup causes it to be irresistibly attracted to things that will instantaneously kill it isn't going to have much of a future.
"Instantaneously" is not a given. People smoke. People eat junk food. People spend more time online than interacting with their family. People spend most of their day sitting at a desk. All behaviors that are hastening them to the grave. But they do it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
I don't think you're getting the points I'm trying to make, I suspect I"m not doing a good job of communicating what I'm trying to say.

It's speculation -- but that's what this forum's about, and even the head of the Vatican Observatory has speculated about the nature of alien life.
You're communicating just fine. I just enjoy a good argument.

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Old 10-09-2017, 09:49 AM
 
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First, I know of the show in the op (ancient aliens); I haven't watched it myself, but my exhusband has and he finds it fascinating.

Second, I know of the scriptures in the Bible that read like the author may have seen a Being, not of this earth.

However, (with that said) human beings are barbaric in nature. Any Being, living beyond our galaxy is not coming here as they'd have no reason to, because we have nothing of value to offer them. If they did show up, we'd be so fearful of them, we'd kill 'em. It wouldn't matter what century, from 1st to now, the reception would be the same.

Why the U.S. Should Lead in Space Weaponization

They wouldn't have to be really really intelligent Beings, they'd just have to be smart enough to know, leave earth off the travel log. Until we learn to stop killing each other ... that's not changing; if we are to believe in Alien Intelligence at least give the intelligence smart enough to know better.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Phila
440 posts, read 813,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
For each of the handful of pyramids that don't have records, there are dozens that do. A pyramid is the most basic structure, in some cases just 20 or 30 feet mounds of dirt, easy to construct by ancient man before the existence of written language, and civilizations come and go. The Egyptian pyramids by contrast, although extremely old, are sophisticated for that time, and thus well recorded in ancient documents and well studied basically from those ancient times to today. It's iconic. There really is no mystery about them, so I don't understand your comment about no stories in that case.

There is nothing evil about them, of course not. Don't fall into the "pyramidiot" thought process...it's a basic shape that happens to be easier to construct than a box shape. Simple as that.
This is the lazy man's theory. May apply to some, but definitely not to the great pyramid or Mayan pyramids. Those are astronomical stone calendars among other things.

They don't discuss the intricate tunnels, inexplicable shafts, near precision alignments to cardinal directions, mathematical significance's and precision cut granite on the insides of the pyramids brought from 500 miles away. They can't tell you how they were flat to 3/10000 of an inch or how the sarcophagus was hollowed out. They don't look at machine markings on rocks. They can't explain how the sarcophagus was put into the chamber, as it is larger than the tunnel leading to it.

The Pyramids are older than known history. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers or knows how they were made and man has figured everything out is arrogant or just plain lazy. There are more questions than answers and sadly Egyptologists have done their best to stonewall any progress in learning more or listening to other viewpoints.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Phila
440 posts, read 813,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambler123 View Post
I'm so tired of this stuff. Between ancient pyramid hype, that stupid "mystery of oak island" nonsense show, and all the rest, it seems like we're on the verge of sliding into another dark age full of superstition and fact-free belief systems. Except this time around there's no excuse for it since all the information about these "mysteries" is readily available online, if people just bother to look up reasonably accurate and believable sources.

But, no - they won't do that. I know several educated and otherwise reasonably intelligent people (their political beliefs aside) in my network of friends who buy into every bit of conspiracy lunacy that comes alone. Aliens building the pyramids, aliens in the bible, crusaders and Egyptians in America thousands of years ago, heaven only knows what on Oak Island, lost cities of Atlantis, time travel in the Philadelphia Experiment, the world once having actual stereotypical magic - fireballs and all, wizards, and even dragons, cars with magic engines that run only on water, magic carburetors that got 100+ miles per gallon, and so on... And it's all utter rubbish.

Their "sources" are nothing but ignorant drivel from the internet or sensationalized TV shows that intentionally obfuscate well-known facts to create mysteries. Their claims are utterly groundless, and when confronted with actual facts, they claim it's "all part of the conspiracy" or defend their lunacy with insane reasoning such as since we don't know EXACTLY how old the pyramids are - to the year - or EXACTLY every detail of their construction, than clearly it's logical to believe they were built by aliens. Same idea with their crackpot method of "disproving" carbon dating. Since you can't tell me EXACTLY how old this human relic is - to the day - with carbon dating, it's acceptable to believe it's from millions of years ago and was created by citizens of Atlantis before magic left the world and the ice age happened, or some crap.

I'm so tired of this groundless, dark-age level of reasoning. There are very few actual mysteries remotely worth mentioning in human history, and an inability to detail fully every single aspect of a "mystery" does not mean you can throw out all the facts already known and just fill them in with sensational, conspiracy-theory drivel from the History Channel or the internet.
Ok champ. Show us all how they were built. How they cut, moved and polished granite with such precision with the tech they had available. Did it ever occur to you the truth is somewhere in the middle? If it doesn't interest you, move along.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Phila
440 posts, read 813,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frostnip View Post
Yup. Plus the shape allows quite naturally for the use of dirt ramps in construction, which means they can be scaled up huge primarily by adding more material and manpower, without needing specialized innovations in construction techniques.

While there's plenty that's unknown about many individual pyramids, pyramids in general are not mysterious.
It takes more dirt to build the ramp than the actual pyramid. Nope. Encyclopedia Brittanica isn't a good source.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Phila
440 posts, read 813,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonchalance View Post
We know how pyramids were made. People prefer to tell 'ghost stories,' and honestly, I can see why: it's fun.

A recent article explains how they might have been made (I'll try to find a link later). Also, a number of years ago, someone on a TV show constructed a pyramid and detailed one way of making them.

Ancient people were not only good engineers, but had an endless supply of slave labor and materials.
Umm no we don't know. Just because someone comes up with a theory doesn't make it correct. It's way more complex and you obviously aren't one to look into it for yourself, so why bother commenting? If you're satisfied with simplistic unproven theories, then move on.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Phila
440 posts, read 813,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I don't know what "sacred geometry" means but there is no mystery either to the dimensions. They had some very deliberate and design dimensions based on some standardized design principles. Remember Egypt is full of various pyramids, some with glaring mistakes that I have seen in person, so by the time of the Great Pyramids of Giza they were proficient and systematic in the design. They were also quite sophisticated, with a good grasp of mathematical concepts and design and measurement tools.
Or maybe, must maybe they tried to copy the Great pyramid and failed.

Another thing worth mentioning that you sheep will just call coincidence is many of these megolithic sites are on the same linear line around the globe connecting them. If that can't inspire awe and questioning the world we live in and how little we really know, I don't know what will.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YM5bWZjyT5k
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