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Old 10-09-2017, 05:52 PM
Status: "Semi-Retired" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC (as of 9.27.18)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisertime View Post
Another thing worth mentioning that you sheep will just call coincidence
You apparently think calling people you disagree with "sheep" and treating them in a condescending fashion ("OK, champ...") is a great way of winning discussions. What's with you True Believers -- didn't you ever take a debating class in high school?
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Old 10-09-2017, 05:55 PM
Status: "Semi-Retired" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC (as of 9.27.18)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
rth.

However, (with that said) human beings are barbaric in nature. Any Being, living beyond our galaxy is not coming here as they'd have no reason to, because we have nothing of value to offer them. If they did show up, we'd be so fearful of them, we'd kill 'em. It wouldn't matter what century, from 1st to now, the reception would be the same.
What makes you think the Star People are going to be benevolent in nature? Or that we're so base and evil that we'd immediately kill them?
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Old 10-09-2017, 06:26 PM
Status: "Semi-Retired" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC (as of 9.27.18)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark S. View Post
All good points, and I agree, with a couple of additions.

First, when it comes to what science tells us about life, we really only have the Earth as a frame of reference. Life might have evolved along completely different lines around a distant star. Or it might not. We simply don't know.

Which is why I totally agree that there is zero evidence there was any alien involvement in the construction of the pyramids or anything else on Earth. But I take issue with the statement that aliens would have no reason for doing so. We simply have no idea why aliens might do such things. Perhaps to them a mud-brick pyramid would be the alien equivalent of a bird house or an ant farm? Again, or maybe not. We simply have no way of knowing.

Second, any alien life advanced enough to leave its star and visit Earth has evolved far beyond our own level of civilization, so again, we have no real frame of reference for what might motivate such beings.
The reality that a lot of science fiction stories and thinkers on this topic leave out is the economics that undergirds behavior. Which is what I've been trying to get across. A slime mold (which is a colonial amoeba, essentially) will find the shortest path between two food sources in a maze - which is the most economical solution to a problem. Coming many light years to create a bird house would not be an economical solution.

There have been science fiction stories that involved species that figured out interstellar travel, but were not particularly smart. And intelligence, technology, and civilization are three different things that don't necessarily go together.

Quote:
I do not assume that. Some behaviors do. But all? Nope. Does chewing gum or playing video games or having a separate spoon for soup and separate fork for salad have a survival value? Does being glued into our smartphones 24/7? Does arguing about aliens on the Internet?

Nope. "Survival of the fittest" does not explain everything. It is not a sort of biological unified field theory that we can use to explain all behavior, psychology, spirituality, etc.
I'm not saying that -- and modern evolutionary theory isn't just about survival of the fittest. The field of sociobiology arose because E. O. Wilson looked at social insects, and asked: how the H did that happen? Why will a worker or warrior caste member give up its life to protect the hive? Further, you have ants and bees which evolved from wasps, and termites which evolved from a cockroach ancestor, and naked mole rats, all independently evolving societies that have a lot of similarity with each other (warrior castes, single queen, sterile workers and warriors, etc). It's a remarkable example of convergent evolution -- only in this case, it's a matter of behavior evolving multiple times rather than a physical characteristic or organ (like the convergent evolution of the mammalian and cephalopod eye).

What this says is: there are laws governing how these behaviors evolve, and it's highly likely the same laws rule everywhere life has evolved because they're not grounded in a certain environment or set of genes, but are rather driven by the economics of kinship (those who are interested in reading more can look up eusocial on wikipedia).

Quote:
"Instantaneously" is not a given. People smoke. People eat junk food. People spend more time online than interacting with their family. People spend most of their day sitting at a desk. All behaviors that are hastening them to the grave. But they do it.
The evolutionary side of behavior works to ensure an individual lives long enough to spread its genes, and to ensure that the group survives (group selection). Humans live way beyond their reproductive age, and natural selection doesn't "care" what they do that may have negative impact past their reproductive age. Once you've spread your genes, your continued existence is nice for you but irrelevant to the species (or your own genes).

An instantaneous behavior that leads to death, on the other hand, will have an immediate impact on individuals in their reproductive prime. That's why they'll be selected against.
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:19 PM
 
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The Sumerians stated that certain knowledge was taught to them by beings from sky, it was not dreams or symbolism, it was part of their history. No alien had to build the pyramids, it is possible the blueprint for certain building techniques and knowledge of the Earth was simply handed down.

Pyramids weren't built just because they looked cool and it looked like they would be an easy structure to build, which obviously, the Great Pyramid isn't. They were a shape that was specifically built on purpose due to how they resonate with the Earth on the ley lines.

The Great Pyramid is built where it was on purpose, it was not just a random spot and this is where the sacred geometry and Archaeoastronomy comes in at.
The crux of the matter is the Moderator cut: rudeare still blindly following the outdated history books that says the Great Pyramid was a tomb, so laughable.

Last edited by Tallysmom; 10-09-2017 at 08:27 PM..
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Old 10-09-2017, 07:41 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisertime View Post
Or maybe, must maybe they tried to copy the Great pyramid and failed.

Another thing worth mentioning that you sheep will just call coincidence is many of these megolithic sites are on the same linear line around the globe connecting them. If that can't inspire awe and questioning the world we live in and how little we really know, I don't know what will.
I don't even have the time to educate them with the decades of research that has been going on, they need to get up to speed on the subject themselves.
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Old 10-09-2017, 08:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
rth.

However, (with that said) human beings are barbaric in nature. Any Being, living beyond our galaxy is not coming here as they'd have no reason to, because we have nothing of value to offer them. If they did show up, we'd be so fearful of them, we'd kill 'em. It wouldn't matter what century, from 1st to now, the reception would be the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
What makes you think the Star People are going to be benevolent in nature? Or that we're so base and evil that we'd immediately kill them?
What makes you think (you should see this coming) Star People (I like your term, so I'll keep it) are not benevolent in nature? What did I say?
Quote:
we'd be so fearful of them, we'd kill 'em.
The barbaric nature of human beings has been well documented (including the Bible) from 1st century b.c. onward ... what more proof do we need, as we can thumb through and read any historical text as man kind has systematically moved through the ages; 'conquered' lands inhabited by others, over and over again? If we could understand their (star people) technology; track the ship back to where it came from; discover we could inhabit it ... human beings would commence to do what they've always done, conquer and make it theirs. (for the sake of all humanity of course)

Let's say the author of the biblical text did see the creatures he described (and he was sober) and those creatures were Sky People, what do you think the Sky People saw in human beings in that era of time? I think they would see people who were at war with one another, discontent, economical strife, famine, diseases. Great stuff to use in a galactic travel brochure, I'm sure.

So again, if there are star people, I'm thinking they have to be smart enough in development of intelligence to know, leave earth off the travel log ... even if they are not, benevolent in nature, risk factor alone, they'd loose more than they would gain, by coming here. We are of no value to them at this stage in our development of intelligence.

The building of the pyramids and calling it a mystery is our inability to believe that people before our time, we're actually smarter than us and more sophisticated in engineering, and since we can not figure it out, aliens did it. Our present day egos far out weigh the stones used to construct the ancient pyramids.
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Old 10-09-2017, 09:29 PM
Status: "Semi-Retired" (set 10 days ago)
 
Location: Greenville, SC (as of 9.27.18)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
What makes you think (you should see this coming) Star People (I like your term, so I'll keep it) are not benevolent in nature? What did I say?
Well, that's the point, isn't it? The only data points we have are intelligent animals on our own planet, and there's no reason to believe based on our own history that more accomplished technologically = more spiritually evolved. Wisdom isn't the same thing as information.

Quote:
The barbaric nature of human beings has been well documented (including the Bible) from 1st century b.c. onward ... what more proof do we need, as we can thumb through and read any historical text as man kind has systematically moved through the ages; 'conquered' lands inhabited by others, over and over again? If we could understand their (star people) technology; track the ship back to where it came from; discover we could inhabit it ... human beings would commence to do what they've always done, conquer and make it theirs. (for the sake of all humanity of course)

Let's say the author of the biblical text did see the creatures he described (and he was sober) and those creatures were Sky People, what do you think the Sky People saw in human beings in that era of time? I think they would see people who were at war with one another, discontent, economical strife, famine, diseases. Great stuff to use in a galactic travel brochure, I'm sure.
The primates closest to us are a nasty bunch. Chimp packs will attack and kill other chimp packs. But let's look at other intelligent animals and how they treat members of their own species.

There's the gentle dolphins: The Dark Secrets That Dolphins Don't Want You to Know

Well, er, how about the loving elephants who seem to care for each other: Why Elephants Are As Ritualistic and Violent As the Mafia

Then there are corvids, which are thought to be in the dog or chimp range of intelligence: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT CROWS

More wolves in alaska are killed by other wolves than by people: It's a Wolf-Eat-Wolf World in the Wilds of Alaska

It would seem that high intelligence on Planet Earth is associated with a lot of violence between the members of a species. There are several ways we might interpret this:

1. Planet Earth is an outlier, high intelligence means gentleness on every other planet
2. The association we see is a coincidence; there's no causal relationship between violence and intelligence
3. There's something about the development of intelligence and society that involves violence

My money is on number 3. Smart and social animals tend to be violent toward each other, it goes with the territory.

Quote:
So again, if there are star people, I'm thinking they have to be smart enough in development of intelligence to know, leave earth off the travel log ... even if they are not, benevolent in nature, risk factor alone, they'd loose more than they would gain, by coming here. We are of no value to them at this stage in our development of intelligence.
We've been more violent than not for most of our history, and any progress we've seen in societies in recent centuries in becoming less violent is probably related to the Enlightenment's view of the nature of humankind. And yet, we have Paris university graduate Pol Pot going back to Cambodia and leading the Khmer Rouge in a slaughter of a large chunk of the population; ISIS uses modern technology to make and distributes videos of the "crusaders" it's beheaded. There's no evidence I can see that technical knowledge and education trump ideology in determining how kindly or cruelly people treat each other. And my guess is it will be no different for our Star Buddies.

I'm with Stephen Hawking -- I'm not convinced we'd be very happy if the Star People dropped by for a visit.
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Old 10-09-2017, 10:48 PM
 
Location: PRC
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Quote:
I'm with Stephen Hawking -- I'm not convinced we'd be very happy if the Star People dropped by for a visit.
Me too.

Unfortunately, I think religion has a lot to answer for too. You just need to wind up the toy army and start it going and it will continue until it is broken, killed, or runs out of energy.

Just like us humans, there are probably warrior civilisations out there who want to conquer the universe and there are probably peaceful ones too.

What if we were created and are an experiment in social development which runs for thousands of years? It would mean there are different phases where the old experiment is stopped, the flasks, environment and instruments are cleaned, and a new experiment is started. I think that is more likely. It would also mean that any ET who wanted to disrupt the experiment would get their wrists slapped by the professor who started it.
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Old 10-10-2017, 12:08 AM
 
7,377 posts, read 3,955,250 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Well, that's the point, isn't it? The only data points we have are intelligent animals on our own planet, and there's no reason to believe based on our own history that more accomplished technologically = more spiritually evolved. Wisdom isn't the same thing as information.



The primates closest to us are a nasty bunch. Chimp packs will attack and kill other chimp packs. But let's look at other intelligent animals and how they treat members of their own species.

There's the gentle dolphins: The Dark Secrets That Dolphins Don't Want You to Know

Well, er, how about the loving elephants who seem to care for each other: Why Elephants Are As Ritualistic and Violent As the Mafia

Then there are corvids, which are thought to be in the dog or chimp range of intelligence: FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT CROWS

More wolves in alaska are killed by other wolves than by people: It's a Wolf-Eat-Wolf World in the Wilds of Alaska

It would seem that high intelligence on Planet Earth is associated with a lot of violence between the members of a species. There are several ways we might interpret this:

1. Planet Earth is an outlier, high intelligence means gentleness on every other planet
2. The association we see is a coincidence; there's no causal relationship between violence and intelligence
3. There's something about the development of intelligence and society that involves violence

My money is on number 3. Smart and social animals tend to be violent toward each other, it goes with the territory.



We've been more violent than not for most of our history, and any progress we've seen in societies in recent centuries in becoming less violent is probably related to the Enlightenment's view of the nature of humankind. And yet, we have Paris university graduate Pol Pot going back to Cambodia and leading the Khmer Rouge in a slaughter of a large chunk of the population; ISIS uses modern technology to make and distributes videos of the "crusaders" it's beheaded. There's no evidence I can see that technical knowledge and education trump ideology in determining how kindly or cruelly people treat each other. And my guess is it will be no different for our Star Buddies.

I'm with Stephen Hawking -- I'm not convinced we'd be very happy if the Star People dropped by for a visit.
^ Thus the reason if they did exist, they wouldn't come here.

The screen name I use on c-d, came from English novelist Emily Brontė; chosen because I felt a kindred soul with her develop through my research of her life during college for a British Lit class. (I will try and do her justice) She had a take on the conflict between nature and civilization which I agreed that in nature conflict arises when man and nature intercept. There is no problem in nature accept for man, I believe is how she expressed her thoughts. (I took out quotes in case I got it wrong) ...

Human Beings have a higher intelligence of all the animals in the animal kingdom, yet, we've yet to learn not to kill each other. We are the dolphins. But we are suppose to be smarter than they are, why aren't we? Where is our evolution? ...

Do we see ourselves in Star People and assume?
Quote:
We've been more violent than not for most of our history
We've been violent 'all' of our history. The Bible says in the end of times, there will be wars and rumors of war. When has that not been the case? Brother against brother, again, pick an era that, that has not been an issue ... there's no way, because it has always been this way.

The same conflict between nature and civilization would arise, between our civilization and Sky People, since we haven't the wisdom of peace, we are assuming, they wouldn't either.
Quote:
accomplished technologically = more spiritually evolved.
Technology is the creation of the tools needed in a civilization to decrees the labor involved in completing a task. (we do not know how the Egyptians engineered the technology needed to get 2.5 tons weighted stone to the top of the pyramids.) Technology does not create wisdom. The technology behind crafting a vessel to move from one galaxy to the next, does not depict Sky People wisdom in social customs of a peaceful co-existence. We know this ... however, we should also know, not to 'assume' facts not yet in evidence.

Just because we don't have the evolved wisdom, of a higher intelligence, doesn't mean those of other galaxies are just as slow.

btw: if they are billions of light years away from us, do you know how long it would take them to get here? we will probably be dead, long before they showed up ...

Last edited by Ellis Bell; 10-10-2017 at 12:41 AM..
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Old 10-10-2017, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Maine
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Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
A slime mold (which is a colonial amoeba, essentially) will find the shortest path between two food sources in a maze - which is the most economical solution to a problem. Coming many light years to create a bird house would not be an economical solution.
To rephrase Dr. Victor Fronkensteen, "As you know, a slime mold --- with very few exceptions --- is not a human being --- or a super advanced alien race."

Not all behaviors fit the problem/solution frame you're trying to shove it in. The accountant has no real problem to solve by building a birdhouse, nor is his son trying to solve any problem by starting an ant farm. Their trip to the local hardware store isn't the most economical solution to the burning problem of the birds and the ants. Nope. They simply want to have a bit of fun.

What might constitute fun to a super advanced species that can traverse the stars? That might have left matter behind altogether? We simply have no way of knowing. We can guess. We can even make educated guesses. But the fact remains we only have a very tiny piece of a puzzle vast beyond our imagining.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
What this says is: there are laws governing how these behaviors evolve
And history clearly shows us that once a species reaches a certain point in its development, it finds ways to break those laws. Or rewrite them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
The evolutionary side of behavior works to ensure an individual lives long enough to spread its genes, and to ensure that the group survives (group selection).
But what if a form of life evolved without genes? Or what if it got a point where it left matter behind entirely? Then, it's not only a whole new ball game, it's a whole new sport. The same rules no longer apply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
An instantaneous behavior that leads to death, on the other hand, will have an immediate impact on individuals in their reproductive prime. That's why they'll be selected against.
Yup. But there are countless behaviors without instantaneous consequences.
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