U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Unexplained Mysteries and Paranormal
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-09-2019, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Madison, Alabama
3,697 posts, read 1,795,463 times
Reputation: 2916

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
The key is the following from the passage I quoted earlier:

Mars has plenty of volcanic glass on its surface - that's why the article mentioned "past volcanism". There's no evidence I've been able to find that whatever volcanic glass exists in those two areas is trinitite (you'd need an instrument on the surface to detect any radiation).

https://www.astrobio.net/mars/martia...tspot-for-life

My guess is he's looking at landforms without a geologist's understanding of what they represent, imagining that they represent a past nuclear war (volcanos blow things up real good, too), then concluding that deposits of volcanic glass are trinitite from said war.
I believe he's basing his thinking on what he says is an unnaturally high level of Xenon 129, which on earth, shows up in areas where there is or has been nuclear activity (e.g., Chernobyl). His conclusions then stretch to there having been a nuclear holocaust on Mars, apparently caused by war. I suspect there's a more benign reason for the high isotope levels. He seems to be sincere in his beliefs rather than using them as a step to fame, but one never knows.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-09-2019, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,742 posts, read 3,756,231 times
Reputation: 8822
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketDawg View Post
I believe he's basing his thinking on what he says is an unnaturally high level of Xenon 129, which on earth, shows up in areas where there is or has been nuclear activity (e.g., Chernobyl). His conclusions then stretch to there having been a nuclear holocaust on Mars, apparently caused by war. I suspect there's a more benign reason for the high isotope levels. He seems to be sincere in his beliefs rather than using them as a step to fame, but one never knows.
I agree that he seems to be sincere in his beliefs. However ... different planets and moons have different compositions (for example, Jupiter is loaded with Xenon and we don't know why), and the isotope composition on Mars is reflected in Martian meteorites found on earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martia...e#Shergottites

That means you have higher ratios of Xe129 in rocks on Mars that aren't the product of volcanism (or past nuclear war), not just in the glass he's considering. The Xe129 is coming from the Martian crust, and is likely the product of fission in the crust - not from an ancient nuclear war. In fact, they discovered a naturally occurring nuclear reactor in Gabon in 1972:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...ission_reactor

He's working from the assumption that what you see on Mars should mirror what you see on earth - including isotopes in the atmosphere. That's a layman's assumption, not one being made by a professional geologist.

More on the generation of isotopes like Xe129 from the crust:

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6631
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....Z066i010p03582

In other words, in the absence of other evidence we don't have any reason to suspect that the Xe129 levels seen on Mars are the product of a nuclear war.

Quote:
In a similar way, xenon isotopic ratios such as 129Xe/130Xe and 136Xe/130Xe are a powerful tool for understanding planetary differentiation and early outgassing. For example, the atmosphere of Mars shows a xenon abundance similar to that of Earth (0.08 parts per million[86]) but Mars shows a greater abundance of 129Xe than the Earth or the Sun. Since this isotope is generated by radioactive decay, the result may indicate that Mars lost most of its primordial atmosphere, possibly within the first 100 million years after the planet was formed. In another example, excess 129Xe found in carbon dioxide well gases from New Mexico is believed to be from the decay of mantle-derived gases from soon after Earth's formation
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon

"Entities should not be multiplied without necessity" -- William of Ockham
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-09-2019, 07:39 PM
 
Location: Madison, Alabama
3,697 posts, read 1,795,463 times
Reputation: 2916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
I agree that he seems to be sincere in his beliefs. However ... different planets and moons have different compositions (for example, Jupiter is loaded with Xenon and we don't know why), and the isotope composition on Mars is reflected in Martian meteorites found on earth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martia...e#Shergottites

That means you have higher ratios of Xe129 in rocks on Mars that aren't the product of volcanism (or past nuclear war), not just in the glass he's considering. The Xe129 is coming from the Martian crust, and is likely the product of fission in the crust - not from an ancient nuclear war. In fact, they discovered a naturally occurring nuclear reactor in Gabon in 1972:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...ission_reactor

He's working from the assumption that what you see on Mars should mirror what you see on earth - including isotopes in the atmosphere. That's a layman's assumption, not one being made by a professional geologist.

More on the generation of isotopes like Xe129 from the crust:

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6631
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley....Z066i010p03582

In other words, in the absence of other evidence we don't have any reason to suspect that the Xe129 levels seen on Mars are the product of a nuclear war.


Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon

"Entities should not be multiplied without necessity" -- William of Ockham
Don't get me wrong ... I don't agree with his reasoning. He pretty much falls on the conspiracy nut side of things, and other conspiracy nuts point to his PhD in physics (or whatever it's in) for credibility. That's not necessarily a valid reason to be credible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-10-2019, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,742 posts, read 3,756,231 times
Reputation: 8822
Quote:
Originally Posted by RocketDawg View Post
Don't get me wrong ... I don't agree with his reasoning. He pretty much falls on the conspiracy nut side of things, and other conspiracy nuts point to his PhD in physics (or whatever it's in) for credibility. That's not necessarily a valid reason to be credible.
Having a PhD means you're (probably) credible in the area where you got your PhD. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, he's a plasma physicist dabbling in Martian atmospheric science and geology. His expertise and publications in plasma physics don't qualify him as an expert in the atmosphere and geology of Mars. That doesn't mean his hypothesis is wrong or right, but it does mean his PhD can't be used as an argument for his credibility. Dr. Phil uses his doctorate to promote his TV shows and books, but his license was taken away because of ethical lapses (sex with a client, practicing without a license after his license was yanked, violation of patient confidentiality). Yet the "Dr." on his name is used by him and people like Oprah to promote him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2019, 02:18 AM
 
Location: PRC
3,054 posts, read 3,263,406 times
Reputation: 2826
What has Xe129 got to do with methane being detected on Mars?

We have no current evidence that there are active geological processes going on. In the past when the volcanos were formed, yes, but not now, no sulphur gases, no eruptions, no huge cracks in the ground with red magma coming out, so what makes the scientists think methane could be current outgassing from ancient life or mineral deposits underground?

I still think it could be from current life and there is more evidence for this than there is for the gas coming from beneath the ground.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2019, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,742 posts, read 3,756,231 times
Reputation: 8822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
What has Xe129 got to do with methane being detected on Mars?
Nothing. The discussion of Xe129 is in response to this claim of evidence for a past nuclear war on Mars:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/55865378-post15.html

Quote:
We have no current evidence that there are active geological processes going on. In the past when the volcanos were formed, yes, but not now, no sulphur gases, no eruptions, no huge cracks in the ground with red magma coming out, so what makes the scientists think methane could be current outgassing from ancient life or mineral deposits underground?
The periodic methane outgassing seen on Mars is not the result of current volcanic activity, and no one is claiming it is. The spikes could however be the result of release from stored deposits (whether organic or volcanic) in the warmer seasons.

Quote:
I still think it could be from current life and there is more evidence for this than there is for the gas coming from beneath the ground.
Again, no one is denying this possibility -- including many of the scientists that a lot of people in this thread seem to hate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Yesterday, 08:42 PM
 
Location: PRC
3,054 posts, read 3,263,406 times
Reputation: 2826
There are melted rock glass-like stones in many of the scottish castles and ancient walls. It is proposed something not volcanic produced these.

There has also been found evidence of a huge nuclear explosion on earth by examining the layers of rock/deposited soil at the same time-point around the world.

Why then is is impossible for Mars to have suffered the same fate?

I think there are also many people who feel a number of rocks in Mars rover images appear to be broken statues, pyramids, obelisks, and other mechanical artifacts such as would be found from a spacecraft breaking apart.

The Indian religious scripts document a nuclear war on Earth between 'gods' in flying chariots, so if this happened here, there is the possibility it happened on Mars too. If there were 'gods' on Earth, they probably were on Mars too and all over the local Solar System.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,742 posts, read 3,756,231 times
Reputation: 8822
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
There are melted rock glass-like stones in many of the scottish castles and ancient walls. It is proposed something not volcanic produced these.
The vitrification was produced by temperatures within the abilities of technology at the time, so the nuclear explosion hypothesis isn't necessary to explain the forts:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4326
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk...72_044_055.pdf

Quote:
There has also been found evidence of a huge nuclear explosion on earth by examining the layers of rock/deposited soil at the same time-point around the world.
If you're referring to the supposed evidence in India, this has also been debunked:

https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4541

Quote:
I think there are also many people who feel a number of rocks in Mars rover images appear to be broken statues, pyramids, obelisks, and other mechanical artifacts such as would be found from a spacecraft breaking apart.
People also see angels in clouds, and Jesus in tortilla chips. The face on Cydonia is an example. Higher resolution photos revealed it's just a mesa that at low res and in certain lighting appears to be a face. Presented with this evidence, Hoagland and his crew said that NASA created a doctored image to hide the real "truth" about Cydonia.

In fact, you find a lot of instances of this sort of thing on our own planet - the Badlands Guardian is the product of erosion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badlands_Guardian
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/...-walsh-alberta

Quote:
The Indian religious scripts document a nuclear war on Earth between 'gods' in flying chariots, so if this happened here, there is the possibility it happened on Mars too. If there were 'gods' on Earth, they probably were on Mars too and all over the local Solar System.
The Mahabharata documents a story about a mythical war. We read back our knowledge about nuclear war in our recent past into these texts -- and label the description "nuclear war". As the Skeptoid article above points out, the supposed evidence for an ancient nuclear war in India doesn't hold water.

There are compelling alternative explanations for all of these things - in the absence of other evidence, the belief that they represent the activity of some past advanced technology on earth, or aliens, is a leap of faith. Everyone's free to decide where they place their faith, and which stories they believe -- personally, I'd rather put my trust and faith elsewhere.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Unexplained Mysteries and Paranormal
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top