What I have learned about spirits.

[ocpaul20]

I only care about what is true and truth is all evidence shows there is nothing after death.

Truth has many levels. Even "scientific truth" is not set in stone and changes over time. At least there is evidential proof that there is contiuance of consciousness whereas there is absolutely NO proof of non-continuance. Someone such as you who is seeking for the truth should be more likely to believe something which has at least some evidence rather than something which has an absence of evidence.

For my side of the debate, I offer this:
Your statement "nothing after death" appears to deny the validity of all the Near-Death Experiences reported across the world and also the out-of-body experiences which are reported and investigated by organisation like the Monroe Institute.

It is difficult to place our faith or hope in any claimed after-death existence, but there is both historical accounts of out-of-body(OOB) experiences and continuing current OOB accounts. There are people who claim they can do this when they want to and for others it happens spontaneously at odd times. Some of these experiences have reported facts which could not possibly have been known being in-body (for example on the operating table).

Of course, this in itself does not prove that life continues after death, but many people have claimed when out-of-body to meet up with their loved ones in some other reality, which would suggest we are not just worm food when we die. I suppose the only way to convince ourselves in spite of our scepticism, is to try the techniques which are said to promote or produce these effects and experience this for ourselves.

However when all is said and done, both are merely beliefs. A belief that there is nothing after death is as valid as a belief that there IS something after death, is it not?

People like Randi have been trying to debunk some other reality for hundreds of years, so what happens when our 'science' finally comes up with the scientific evidence that other dimensions exist? Occultists have known this for ever, but as soon as science pronounces it 'fact', people start to feel comfortable believing.

I think there is plenty of evidence all around us that there are other realities. Those people who cannot see it are not looking hard enough or in the correct way.

[prhill]

Originally Posted by ocpaul20

Truth has many levels. Even "scientific truth" is not set in stone and changes over time. At least there is evidential proof that there is contiuance of consciousness whereas there is absolutely NO proof of non-continuance. Someone such as you who is seeking for the truth should be more likely to believe something which has at least some evidence rather than something which has an absence of evidence.

For my side of the debate, I offer this:
Your statement "nothing after death" appears to deny the validity of all the Near-Death Experiences reported across the world and also the out-of-body experiences which are reported and investigated by organisation like the Monroe Institute.

It is difficult to place our faith or hope in any claimed after-death existence, but there is both historical accounts of out-of-body(OOB) experiences and continuing current OOB accounts. There are people who claim they can do this when they want to and for others it happens spontaneously at odd times. Some of these experiences have reported facts which could not possibly have been known being in-body (for example on the operating table).

Of course, this in itself does not prove that life continues after death, but many people have claimed when out-of-body to meet up with their loved ones in some other reality, which would suggest we are not just worm food when we die. I suppose the only way to convince ourselves in spite of our scepticism, is to try the techniques which are said to promote or produce these effects and experience this for ourselves.

However when all is said and done, both are merely beliefs. A belief that there is nothing after death is as valid as a belief that there IS something after death, is it not?

People like Randi have been trying to debunk some other reality for hundreds of years, so what happens when our 'science' finally comes up with the scientific evidence that other dimensions exist? Occultists have known this for ever, but as soon as science pronounces it 'fact', people start to feel comfortable believing.

I think there is plenty of evidence all around us that there are other realities. Those people who cannot see it are not looking hard enough or in the correct way.

I used to believe in an afterlife and then I had one of these so-called OBE/NDE and after it happened I realized it was all in the mind due to a traumatic experience I was having at that moment. Yes it seemed real but it clearly was not

So I did some research and found others who also had OBE/NDE and also saw as they said it was all in the mind. Then I dug deeper and found that science proved these experiences are indeed all in the mind and in fact created a helmet that can cause these very experiences in the mind. Fact is an after life is wishful thinking it is not a reality. Just like people wish wealth would fall out of the sky, they wish an afterlife existed. But reality does not care about wishes, it is what it is

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by CALGUY

What I am about to tell the members of this forum is what I have learned through years of research and actual contact with spirits.
This is going to be a long read, so bear with me.

Many will cast the information aside, without a second thought(that is expected).
To those with an interest in knowing what lies ahead, and their present lives, it is my intention to forward what I have learned, and let you be the judge.

To begin, my involvement in this subject of spirits, spiritualism, and the human existence we live everyday, came about when my partner passed 26 years ago.
I had not one bit of interest in this subject until shortly after he died.
By an innocent gathering at my house one night, three months after he passed, I was introduced to what, at that time I would call, the world of the unknown.

Many of us go about our daily lives never giving any thought to a life beyond the one we are experiencing presently.
I know I didn't.

At this house gathering were friends that were associated with both me and my deceased partner.
One of the guest asked me if I had ever considered the possibility of an afterlife.
To be honest, it never entered my mind, and at that time in my life, I had no thoughts about it, one way or another.
My friend suggested I go to the book store, and purchase a book titled, "Life after Life", by Raymond Moody.
I did that the following morning, and as well purchased another book authored by him, "Life after Death".
Little did I know, that one exercise of going to that bookstore was about to change my life forever.

Completely engrossed in the book, I couldn't put it down.
It was like a magnet, drawing me to it's every word.
I was in complete awe that this information was in print.
I wondered could this be so?
The author had documented many events that people who he interview had experienced.
I finished the first book in two days, and wanted to see if things were the same, or more enlightened in the second book, "life after Death".
Many of the incidents in the first book , were duplicated in the second, with one very huge difference.

Half way through Life after Death, Moody mentions an experiment in something called EVP.
He went on mentioning the process, and posted the name of a woman who was a pioneer in the field of EVP.
For those unfamiliar with the term, it stands for Electronic Voice Phenomenon.
The process involves recording voices of those who have passed on.
The woman he mentioned lived in a place called Severna Park Maryland.
To say I was intrigued at this information presented by this author, would be an understatement.
In his description of the process he also mentioned the basic equipment for one who would be interested in experimenting with EVP.

The following morning, I headed out to my local electronics store to purchase a recorder, and microphone.
Nothing fancy, just basic, wondering all the while, could this actually happen?

It took me a week of recording before I had my first contact.
It absolutely blew me away.
This female spirit was pleading for help.
She kept repeating, "Help me, please help me", over and over.
Actually I was in no position to help her.
This was all new to me, but on a whim, I decided I would try to get some help and information about this spirit asking for help.

I had nothing more than a name, and town for this pioneer woman involved with EVP, mentioned in the book.
Bear in mind this is long before cell phones.
I dialed directory assistance, gave her name and town, and lo and behold she had a published telephone number.
I called her, introduced myself, and she was extremely happy that I contacted her.
Her name was Sarah Estep.( you can google her name, tons of information)

We had a long conversation, and she explained that the female spirit was in limbo.
When she had to leave the body she was incarnated into because of death, she could not find her way back to the world of spirits.
She wanted to return to the human existence, but again, had no way of returning, and was asking me for help.
Sarah explained a lot to me in that conversation, and in future conversations, again, she was extremely helpful.

In one of our conversation she suggested "The Spirits' Book, by Alan Kardec.
To this day, this book is the most informative I have ever experienced, in all the research, and publications I have read.
It was , for the most part, "written" by the spirits themselves, through automatic writing, and the use of mediums.
I highly suggest people interested in the subject of spirits, and paranormal events, read this book.
It is on goggle as a free download in PDF format.

As I stated earlier, I involved myself often in EVP, and I was fortunate to contact my deceased partner many times over the years, as well as many other spirits.
My knowledge comes from actually talking and listening to what these spirits have to say.

Just some of the many issues I have learned:
Spirits know a life from conception to death, before choosing to incarnate into a particular being.
Spirits have a supreme power of mental telepathy.(I will explain an event later on regarding this very quality, that involved me).

Spirits use beings for the sole purpose of enriching their own being.
In humans, it has many events and issues that serve as a learning experience for the spirit.
The ultimate goal for most(not all) spirits is to reach ultimate purity, that will enable them to sit next to the creator of all, for eternity.

Only the purest of pure will ever reside next to the creator.
In this quest for purity, spirits may go through hundreds, if not thousands of incarnations, hoping to better themselves, and reach that ultimate goal.

Along the way, many slip and fall(fail if you will).
That failure makes itself known in the life we humans live.
If we fail, the spirit has failed, and the spirit is aware that sometimes change is necessary.
Sometimes a spirit in an act of penance will incarnate into a being that it knows ahead of time will serve to show elder spirits, and the creator that it is sorry for the life it had before, and wants to make amends, by incarnating into a body that more than likely will have a serious affliction for it's entire life.
The spirit, knowing this, will incarnate willingly.

Before I became aware of this fact about willingly incarnating into an afflicted body, I really had pity on people I would see with some physical, or mental disability.
I know longer have pity on them, it has been replaced with a feeling of praise, for the spirit within them.
The spirit is seeking penance, and that is a good thing.
As humans we naturally feel sympathy for these kinds of people, but if you know the reasons behind the affliction, you have a better understanding why it happens.

Spirits have also taught me , to some degree what life is like on the other side.
Sometime we find ourselves asking, "just where do these spirits exist"?
I have asked that question more than once, and the answers are usually close to the answer all have given me.
Spirits (unless it is an elder spirit, are not allowed to divulge much about their world,except to say it is "peaceful:","restful", "beautiful".
When questioned further, the answer is usually "We are everywhere".
"We can be close to you, or on some distant world".
"We are where we are needed".
In short, they are everywhere in the universe.
The universe is their world.

Now, let's cover another issue.
Do you question sometimes why a particular human is either very good, and caring, while others are mean, and will possibly turn to things against the law, such as murder, robbery, rape etc?
The answer to that can be given in one short sentence.
Spirits have good and bad among them, just as in our human existence, after all, we are the embodiment of the spirit within us.
When an evil spirit incarnates into a human (and that happens often) that human will be evil as well.
Remember I said early on, we humans are but a tool, and reflection of the spirit incarnated into each of us.
The evil ones are usually a young spirit that has many, many lives of learning ahead of it.
Young spirits, like young humans feel no responsibility, or the need to enhance their existence.
Like young humans, they need to be educated, and in their case, that could take many re-incarnations, and lifetimes.

I stated earlier that I had an incident involving a spirit's ability at mental telepathy.
One evening a few years ago, while taping, I played the tape back to see if I had made contact with any one, and I heard this woman asking, "Is that you Robert".
I was stunned, knowing the only one I knew(especially female) that called me by my given name, was my mother.
I need to interject her and state my family was a loving family, but we were all raised to be independent of one another.
I didn't hang with my siblings, and they were busy with their friends.
We were not a dysfunctional family, just very independent of one another.
When I moved to California, mom and dad visited about every five years, we were not close, and again, it was the independence instilled into us as children.

So when I heard this voice asking was that me, I thought my mother had passed, and no one in the family told me.
It was late, so I decided to call back east the next morning.
My dad answered the phone, and told me "mom is out shopping".
I did not mention the tape, or that I was even involved in taping.
He told me he would tell her I called, and she would call me.
That was the last time I talked to my dad, and his last words before hanging up the phone were, "I love you son".(those were the last words he ever spoke to me.
He passed shortly after that call.)

Now, I was really confused, who was the spirit if it wasn't my mother?
I tried later that day, with success, to reach that female spirit once again.
I knew it was not my mother, but wanted to find what this was all about.
I began asking question, as though it were the spirit on my mother.
I asked, "when did you die"?
"What funeral home were you interned from"
" How did the family dress you for your funeral."
To all those questions, the spirit gave the answers I would expect, except it went into detail as to what my mother was wearing for her funeral.
The spirit stated "Carol(my sister) dressed me in a beige dress with a turquoise corsage."
My mother did call me, and no mention of my taping. She was happy to hear from me.
WE ended with a promise to keep better in touch.
Two years later, my mom passed.
I did not attend the funeral, and called my sister after the funeral to learn more about what happened.

Mom died of cancer, and was buried from the funeral home, exactly as that spirit had told me two years before.
Carol stated on the phone" she looked fine, and at rest".
" I dressed her in a beige dress and turquoise corsage, that seemed fitting for her.".
I was blown away, remembering what that female spirit had told me earlier, before my mother actually passed.

I called Sarah, and she explained it fully.
The spirit that posed as my mother was another one in limbo, and use her telepathy as a means to come back to the earthly plain, which of course it couldn't.
The same telepathy was used that a spirit contemplating a re-incarnation would use before incarnating.


I sit back, wondering just how much more I am going to be fortunate to learn concerning spirits.

At my advanced age, it won't be too many years before I will know, and join those on the other side, and to be completely honest, I look forward to it.
I don't have some sort of death wish, but I count myself among the very fortunate in knowing more about what to expect than most people.
There is much more that I can say about spirits, and their existence, but this post is long enough.



Bob.

Hi CALGUY,

There is so much to digest here, and I have so many questions.

In my own experiences and studies, some things ring true. Others confirm classes I have taken and the opinions of others in this field.

I only found one thought slightly troubling - and you are certainly not the first in the world of metaphysics to voice this - that is, that the afflicted choose their condition and existence.

My compassionate and generally empathetic nature finds it difficult to "blame the victim" and not take pity on the poor, infirm, afflicted and marginalized in our society. I fear even more, how a society would function that was informed by that notion.

"Oh they are hungry, let them starve. Who knows what they did in a past life" - I just can't think that way.

I also can't think that entire types of people - races, religions and ethnic groups, along with LQBTQ people, and others would choose to be at least misunderstood - or at worst hated.

What is your response to this?

[CALGUY]

Originally Posted by rstevens62

Very interesting! Ive read a few things here and there on EVP in the past, but your post has me more interested in trying it now!


I remember talking to a lady I know who was very 'spiritually open' years ago, I know you didnt mention this in your post, but she said something once about being able to tap into non-human spirits as well, I believe she was referring to beings who lived elsewhere in the universe (whether you call them inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial).


Its stand to reason, if humans die and go into this spirit realm, other beings probably do as well, and according to her, we ALL go to the same place.


Im curious what your thoughts on this are or if you even have any opinion, or if you have ever made contact with a spirit that claimed to be something other than human?


To be honest though, this lady was the grandmother of a girl I hung around with years ago, and we got to talking more and more, she was interested in the same kinds of things as I was (UFOs, aliens, demons, spirits, afterlife, etc), She may have been talking about a type of remote viewing or astral projection/travel, instead of EVP, its been so many years though, I cannot recall exactly, I have heard of people remote viewing 'other worlds' though).

The lady you spoke of at the beginning of your post was 100% correct.
The spirit world is the entire universe.

Obviously many spirits, other than ones that were humans at one time, are also in the universe.
I have never had any contact with them, but I attribute that to the fact when I ask for contact I only ask to speak with spirits that were here in an earthly life.
This leads me to a question someone asked of me in the past.
" What about spirits using a foreign language?"

Spirits know by association what language they need to speak to communicate.
If I were asking in let's say Russian, to make contact, a spirit that knows Russian would be the one contacted, and responding.

I make it sound like spirits are sitting around just waiting to make contact with we humans.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
I have learned, that many spirits actually live as though they still had a human existence.
Many work different jobs, while many occupy their existence helping lesser spirits to learn.
With that information, one is left to ask, is the spirit world just "space", or does it have material(matter) as we have on earth?
My answer to that is, I am not sure.

We humans are aware space exist.
Scientist have shown us many things in space that are, in some instances, beyond belief.
The billions of stars, the galaxies, the planets etc.
But I have often asked myself, what lies beyond all we have seen, and known?
Surely there is something out there we (by absolute direction) are not allowed to know.

The spirits speak of "many worlds" they travel to, at ease.
I have been told by spirits, they are all around us.
This leads me to believe they are everywhere in the universe.
That being the case, surely they inhabit each and every planet, and star in the universe.

Now, getting back to the subject of "jobs"
I DO know for sure, some spirits have actual jobs that many humans have, and an experience I had not to long ago will provide some insight.
As I said earlier in a previous post, spirits spend much of, what we humans call time (though there is no time in the spirit world) in thought.
They only need to think something to have it so.
They "see" what they want to "see".
They do what they want to do (with in reason).
If one chooses work , over being idle, that happens.

At this point I want to elaborate on an experience I had, that left an indelible mark on me as to the question do spirits work.
To better explain what happened, I need to step aside and explain what, and why we dream, because the event involved a dream.
From a perspective promoted in the spirit's book, I learned that dreams are when our soul within is free to disembark from the human body (not completely).
We dream when we sleep, and sometimes remember that dream upon waking.
Sometimes we don't remember a dream.

As we sleep, our soul leaves the body to travel to places it is familiar with, and is among spirits it knows.
Our minds are witness to what the spirit is doing, and THAT is our dream.

How many times have you heard someone say, I had a dream of a place I have never been, but knew all about the area?
I was very comfortable there.
I met people I never knew, but felt I knew them.
These are your soul 's actions outside the body when you sleep, and you are allowed to be a witness.

Now, back to the event.
When my partner was living, he often stated he wished he could have been a teacher.
His background of coming from a poor family, would never have been able to sustain a college education, to become a teacher.
Years after he died, I had a dream one night, and I was sitting on a grassy area, with an indistinguishable building behind me.

My partner came over to me, took me by the hand, and lead me into the building saying, "Bobby, I want to show you something".
We entered what appeared to be a classroom in a school.
He motioned me to sit in the rear of the room, and walked to the front of the class.
I started to cry, when I realized HE was the teacher, teaching his class.
I was overcome with joy and could not control my emotions.
The dream ended there in that classroom, and I woke with tears falling from my eyes, still reeling with emotion.
He had accomplished in the spirit world, what had evaded him all his adult life here on earth.
When any one doubts there is an afterlife, I do my best to explain what I have experienced, and hope they can learn from my experiences.

I for sure have absolutely no doubt this human existence is not all there is.


Bob.

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by prhill

Ideas like souls and spirits, etc are all man made ideas just like all other myths. Which is why there are so many of them.

For someone who claims to be so grounded in reality, what do you realistically think the chances are that you will change anyone's mind?

If you don't think you can change anyone's mind, and you continue posting here, you may want to ask the folks over on the psychology forum why they think you do this.


I am not against science. I believe in climate change, allopathic medicine and it's usefulness in society. I also believe in other forms of healing. Science is fine and good. I am just not terribly interested in it.

Maybe there is a science forum. Maybe their should be a skeptics forum. If there were, I would not waste my precious time arguing with those people.

[somestranged]

Originally Posted by gray horse

DUDE, I was a non believer until there was two EVPs from my property. I work in the technology industry. I vetted my paranormal team. Stuff happened that couldn't be explained in our "everyday human world".

THIS is not BS..

No it isnt.... When my grandfather passed,did that rock that says LOVE on it magically move onto my desk?? (It was in my closet when I left)

No it did not......... My grandpa was telling me his was ok........

Originally Posted by prhill

It does not matter why did none of these people do it when it was open hmmm??? And science still exists by the way so again where are these people??? Stop the excuses already it only proves this spiritual stuff is fake

She is right PRhill.... I think you aere nervous and dont like discussing these things which is fine...... Please dont look down on us because we do believe and have had experiences

We arent meaning to insult you....... This stuff fascinates us

[ocpaul20]

Sheena12 - The way I understand it from the stuff I have read, is that the Earth is a school and your spirit comes here to learn things. It also may go to other 'schools' which are in other places/dimensions/realities to experience other environments. Like a

The conditions of your earthly life, the environment, country, etc are all things you choose before you come in, to give yourself a better chance at learning the lessons you have decided to learn this time around.

Some of the lessons you have been working on for a few lifetimes and not got it right yet, so each lifetime you give yourself another chance to learn what you missed last time.

This means that, although it may look tough to be in a body with ill-health, there are valuable lessons to be learned for the spirit and for those around the person with ill-health.

Perhaps we forget that time is an illusion which we agree to be part of the rules of the Earth game, and actually, there is no linear time - it is a creation of this reality. The spirit has all the time it needs to learn its lessons so there is no hurry to get things done.

Science is getting to the understanding that everything is energy vibrating at different rates, which means that our bodies and the table we are sitting at, all appear to us to be solid but aren't. This is how ghosts etc can walk through walls - because their energy and molecules are vibrating at a different rate to our 3D reality. For them, there are huge holes/gaps in between the atoms of the wall which they can easily pass through. It is why some people can see ghosts, because they are more sensitive and can see other energy vibrating faster. Some animals can only see in black and white and not colour so it is the same principle - they are only sensitive to certain wavelengths.

[ocpaul20]

Originally Posted by prhill

I used to believe in an afterlife and then I had one of these so-called OBE/NDE and after it happened I realized it was all in the mind due to a traumatic experience I was having at that moment. Yes it seemed real but it clearly was not

So I did some research and found others who also had OBE/NDE and also saw as they said it was all in the mind. Then I dug deeper and found that science proved these experiences are indeed all in the mind and in fact created a helmet that can cause these very experiences in the mind. Fact is an after life is wishful thinking it is not a reality. Just like people wish wealth would fall out of the sky, they wish an afterlife existed. But reality does not care about wishes, it is what it is

I have heard so many people express the wish they would love to believe - if the facts/evidence/proof was available, and then not be able to express exactly what they would need which would allow them to believe the other point of view.

As I said before and which has been ignored, there is more circumstantial evidence for a consciousness existing after death than there is for NO life after death. So.. maybe you tell us why you are convinced there is no life after death and give us some evidence to back up your belief. Otherwise it is just two opposing beliefs like any one of a million others.

Just because you can create a device which reportedly provides the same or similar experience, does not mean the two are the same. They may be, but who knows because no scientist has used the helmet and to actually investigate. The 'proof' seems to go "We have created a device which produces the same reported experiences so we dont need to take this any further". What kind of science is that?

If you read the books written by the guys who worked for the military and CIA doing Remote Viewing (for nearly 25 years), they say they encountered many different beings not just human. It seems to me that our true consciousness is not one which is fixed in time and space but one which can be set free of our body to roam where it likes. There are certain conclusions to draw from that.

[cjseliga]

Originally Posted by ocpaul20

The conditions of your earthly life, the environment, country, etc are all things you choose before you come in, to give yourself a better chance at learning the lessons you have decided to learn this time around.

So what about infants born with life-threatening conditions that pass away shortly after birth or before they even turn one, did the spirit purposely want to do that or did they just screw up in choosing that body?

What about people that are killed/murdered at no fault of their own, are they "punished" because their time here was cut short and they didn't get enough time to learn the lessons they decided to learn this time around or do they get a pass?

What about people that decide to kill themselves, did they already learn the lessons they wanted to learn here and just decided to move on to bigger and better things on other planets in other galaxies around the universe?

[CALGUY]

Originally Posted by sheena12

Hi CALGUY,

There is so much to digest here, and I have so many questions.

In my own experiences and studies, some things ring true. Others confirm classes I have taken and the opinions of others in this field.

I only found one thought slightly troubling - and you are certainly not the first in the world of metaphysics to voice this - that is, that the afflicted choose their condition and existence.

My compassionate and generally empathetic nature finds it difficult to "blame the victim" and not take pity on the poor, infirm, afflicted and marginalized in our society. I fear even more, how a society would function that was informed by that notion.

"Oh they are hungry, let them starve. Who knows what they did in a past life" - I just can't think that way.

I also can't think that entire types of people - races, religions and ethnic groups, along with LQBTQ people, and others would choose to be at least misunderstood - or at worst hated.

What is your response to this?

The afflicted, and the "misunderstood" as you put it, are not choices these humans made, but rather the spirit who chose to incarnate into them.
Their lives were mandated before conception.
I stated earlier, that spirits have the ability to see a life before it is conceived, knowing full well what that life will be.
If a spirit is wanting to learn,use it's ability to comfort,suffer, or just maintain, it has the ability to judge a life before incarnating.

As humans we do not have the capacity to understand how something can see something that does not exist.
The answer to that is, spirits are capable of this feat, in order that they may choose wisely the life ahead for them.
Once again, it is all about learning and successfully completing pre-arraigned trials for the betterment of the spirits.
That is the sole reason we humans exist at all.
It is never the other way around.

Just as a worn out jacket is tossed aside, when no longer useful, the human body is treated in the same manner.
When it has fulfilled it's obligations to the spirit,it is no longer needed.

The necessary argument by many would be, "do you mean to tell me babies are born afflicted so that a spirit can learn, and have a better chance of reaching purity, which is their goal?"
That answer is , that would be correct.

I have heard in the past, concerning this subject, comments from some people , stating when a baby is born with some defect, it is dna, and would happen anyway.
This is true, but it was born with a corrupted dna by design, not heredity.
People need to understand humanity is at the call of all spirits, and this too, was by design.

I have been involved in spiritual contact going on thirty years, and over the years, I have learned much that I speak of, through those contacts.
Publication back up many of the things I have discovered through spirit contact, and I have absolute confidence in what I am being told.

When I see things around me, in everyday life, many of those things are exactly what I have been told in spirit contact, so I tend to believe the words spoken, when I witness those word being acted out every day in the human existence.


Bob.