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Old 07-27-2019, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,693 posts, read 3,731,678 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
OK, that may be the case, however, often people ask for 'help' from (intercession = "the action of intervening on behalf of another" ) their daddy God to heal loved ones or to provide physical items - whether in the course of their building a relationship or not. This is what I am talking about when I say there is very little difference. It is just splitting hairs or semantics to pretend otherwise.
It goes beyond semantics or splitting hairs, the distinction is at the heart of what the Judaeo-Christian traditions say about the nature of the will and our purpose in the universe.

In the garden of Gethsemane Christ prayed "If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me" and then followed that with "Yet not as I will, but as You will". He was asking a Person for something, but making it clear that He would follow the Father's will all the way to the horror of Golgotha. His response was grounded in His relationship with the Father.

You were responding to someone who wrote:

Quote:
I don't see an effort to manifest something by concentrating intention or visualization as the same as praying to God, but I don't feel compelled to convince you of that. ;-)
In "manifesting" by concentrating intention or visualization, the person is using their own will to manipulate some supposed internal property of the "Universe" to get what they want. This has nothing to do with relationship, it's magical manipulation of occult rules to get a result. And it's grounded in the will of the self rather than with entering into relationship with the Creator. That's what the fall of Lucifer and his followers was about, as well as the myth of Adam and Eve's fall in the garden of Eden.

Regarding the Philip Experiment - what I'd guess was happening was either demonic in nature (bad actors pretending to be something else for their own purposes) or grounded in some aspect of consciousness and the way that individual consciousnesses interact that we don't understand. I had episodes of precognition associated with the deaths of JFK and my father; what's that about? Poltergeist phenomena seem to be associated frequently with teens going through puberty - assuming they're not all faked by the people involved, it might be that the physical and psychological changes that happen in puberty are associated somehow with the generation of the phenomenon. A similar mechanism might be operating in the case o the Philip Experiment; we create characters in our dreams that can be very realistic, maybe a group can do the same thing via seances.

Last edited by Vasily; 07-27-2019 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 07-27-2019, 09:14 PM
 
Location: PRC
3,014 posts, read 3,245,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
...the heart of what the Judaeo-Christian traditions say about the nature of the will and our purpose in the universe.
I think many people who are not of those particular faiths would agree they also want a 'relationship' with the Creator. Many also want the best for their fellow beings too. It is the will, intention and purpose aspect of it all to which I am referring when I say there is little difference. Both groups want the same thing, so if there IS a difference then I dont see it from what you have written.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
In the garden of Gethsemane Christ prayed "If it is possible, let this cup pass from Me" and then followed that with "Yet not as I will, but as You will". He was asking a Person for something, but making it clear that He would follow the Father's will all the way to the horror of Golgotha. His response was grounded in His relationship with the Father.
No-one knows what was said then or anytime during the Christ period as I think I am correct in saying, the gospels were written 50-100 years after Christ died. At that age, all dialogue MUST have been made up. However, from what you have written it is still asking a favour from a higher being whether or not it gets granted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
And it's grounded in the will of the self rather than with entering into relationship with the Creator.
I think you will find that many people appeal to a higher power to get the job done. I dont know a lot about Pagan rituals, but I suspect there is Mother Earth in there somewhere. What you call 'God' does not really matter and only serves to divide mankind. I somehow suspect that Judaeo-Christian traditional teachings probably want a united and peaceful mankind. (Maybe not if they dont believe the same things?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
we create characters in our dreams that can be very realistic, maybe a group can do the same thing via seances.
I think these people were wide awake and experiencing the physical effects in the group session. I dont think it is similar to being asleep and dreaming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasily
what I'd guess was happening was either demonic in nature (bad actors pretending to be something else for their own purposes) or grounded in some aspect of consciousness and the way that individual consciousnesses interact that we don't understand
So, how is this consciousness thing any different to what I suggested is going on? Talking of "demons" is putting a religious slant to the whole thing and assumes there are entities which have consciousness in their own right. Isnt this the same as spirits, dead people, thought forms such as we are talking about here ? The Philip Experiment is suggesting that one set of consciousnesses can create another consciousness (though focused intention) which will eventually have an identity of its own.
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Old 07-27-2019, 09:51 PM
Status: "crazy for daisies" (set 2 days ago)
 
100 posts, read 12,198 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I personally think that as soon as you adopt a subservient role with your Creator, you start to see it as an authoratative figure and the relationship begins to get one-sided. If thats what you want, then thats fine, but it does not work for me. Historically, one powerful party and one less powerful party leads to abuse of power and, as can be seen from the stories in the Bible, Gods have the same jealousies and tantrums as man does. For myself, logically I cannot think that the God mentioned in the OT is the Creator because of these reported emotional ourtbursts.

Instead of addressing the actual topic...
Quote:
Iwasmadenew: "I don't see an effort to manifest something by concentrating intention or visualization as the same as praying to God"
... you choose to express your Christophobia? Is your basis for belief really that flimsy that a simple question makes you defensive and insulting? Not very impressive.
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Old 07-28-2019, 04:20 AM
 
Location: PRC
3,014 posts, read 3,245,161 times
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Quote:
you choose to express your Christophobia? Is your basis for belief really that flimsy that a simple question makes you defensive and insulting? Not very impressive
Whatever...
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
14,445 posts, read 11,787,467 times
Reputation: 10832
Did most people that commented miss the one little disclaimer in the original link:

"Ultimately, if we’re to be honest, it was never what you could call an “experiment” — there was no control group or real, scientific methodology involved."

Nobody was there looking for the obvious; a way to fake knocking. There was no 'visual' ghost. The knocking could have come from an accomplice or device installed to simulate knocking. Just because people want to believe in ghost; does not mean there are real ghost. This 'experiment' was planned and there is a good chance one of the planners wanted these results.
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Old Today, 01:26 PM
 
750 posts, read 827,993 times
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There was a french woman, Madame David-Neel, think she wasa theosiphist like Madame Blavtski. She went to Tibet, and when there,learned about tulpas. She acutally created one. As she described him a fat jolly monk. but then it started to change, and become leaner and mean. She was able to absorb it back into herself, but it took a great deal of work and several months.
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Old Today, 04:39 PM
Status: "crazy for daisies" (set 2 days ago)
 
100 posts, read 12,198 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by fritos56 View Post
There was a french woman, Madame David-Neel, think she wasa theosiphist like Madame Blavtski. She went to Tibet, and when there,learned about tulpas. She acutally created one. As she described him a fat jolly monk. but then it started to change, and become leaner and mean. She was able to absorb it back into herself, but it took a great deal of work and several months.
This entity originated from within her? Can you tell me more about the re-absorption process?
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