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Old 11-16-2019, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,966 posts, read 3,897,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
I just posted a thread with a declassified CIA document, that proves they observed intelligent life on Mars back in 1984.
If you're referring to this:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00760001-9.pdf
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-...piracy-9823899


Quote:
The UFO hunter believes that a document recently declassified by the CIA features a transcript between a psychic and a CIA handler.

That's not proof that there were observations of intelligent life on Mars, it's proof that the CIA experimented with remote viewing and psychics -- and assuming there's some real observations in the psychic's reports, it sounds like they're mixed with a bunch of extraneous subjective stuff added by the psychic's subconscious. Think about your dreams, that contain real stuff mixed with exaggeration and fantasy.



Which makes the documents interesting to read, but doesn't qualify them as evidence that there's intelligent life on Mars. And pretty much useless as an intelligence tool -- which is why the government gave up on remote viewing.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:09 AM
 
12,412 posts, read 3,269,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
If you're referring to this:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingr...00760001-9.pdf
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-...piracy-9823899





That's not proof that there were observations of intelligent life on Mars, it's proof that the CIA experimented with remote viewing and psychics -- and assuming there's some real observations in the psychic's reports, it sounds like they're mixed with a bunch of extraneous subjective stuff added by the psychic's subconscious. Think about your dreams, that contain real stuff mixed with exaggeration and fantasy.



Which makes the documents interesting to read, but doesn't qualify them as evidence that there's intelligent life on Mars. And pretty much useless as an intelligence tool -- which is why the government gave up on remote viewing.
Remote viewing is something else entirely...I cannot choose where to go in my dreams, or go to a specific location.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,966 posts, read 3,897,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Remote viewing is something else entirely
According to the article, the psychic in question was apparently hypnotized: "...it's time to come back to the sound of my voice". There are a lot of different altered states of consciousness, and not all of them are congruent with what's happening in the objective world outside the experiencer's head. Supposing there was some accuracy in what the psychic said -- there's no way to prove that what the psychic reported was not a combination of real data plus stuff made up in the psychic's head.

Quote:
...I cannot choose where to go in my dreams, or go to a specific location.
Except for lucid-control dreaming.
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Old 11-17-2019, 12:57 PM
 
12,412 posts, read 3,269,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
According to the article, the psychic in question was apparently hypnotized: "...it's time to come back to the sound of my voice". There are a lot of different altered states of consciousness, and not all of them are congruent with what's happening in the objective world outside the experiencer's head. Supposing there was some accuracy in what the psychic said -- there's no way to prove that what the psychic reported was not a combination of real data plus stuff made up in the psychic's head.



Except for lucid-control dreaming.
Actually yes there is, When I read about some of these RV experiments, before giving them off planet locations to view, they tested them with locations they knew about, and would set objects in a specific place, to see if they could actually remote view or not, from what I could tell, they tested these people extensively, to make sure they really had this ability and were not just making stuff up, dreaming it, etc.


I dont see why it so hard to recognize these abilities are real, we are always learning more and more about the human body and mind, and what it can do, its not that big a deal imo, they are just mental abilities that some people have or have the ability to develop over time.
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Old 11-17-2019, 08:51 PM
 
Location: PRC
3,262 posts, read 3,370,336 times
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Pulling your chain matey !! You are reacting so well to his posts.
There are some who just like to do the chain pulling and some who like to get their chains pulled.

People are going to believe what they want in spite of what is said. All we can do is to present the evidence as we see it. It may not be good enough for others, but we have put it out there for the ones it IS good enough for.

I have to ask myself why these types keep coming back to argue "against" again and again but I suppose we do the same "for". So, maybe it is for the fun of it.
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Old 11-18-2019, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Actually yes there is, When I read about some of these RV experiments, before giving them off planet locations to view, they tested them with locations they knew about, and would set objects in a specific place, to see if they could actually remote view or not, from what I could tell, they tested these people extensively, to make sure they really had this ability and were not just making stuff up, dreaming it, etc.
Why Stargate was terminated, from an independent review:

Quote:
The foregoing observations provide a compelling argument against continuation of the program within the intelligence community. Even though a statistically significant effect has been observed in the laboratory, it remains unclear whether the existence of a paranormal phenomenon, remote viewing, has been demonstrated. The laboratory studies do not provide evidence regarding the origins or nature of the phenomenon, assuming it exists, nor do they address an important methodological issue of inter-judge reliability.

 Further, even if it could be demonstrated unequivocally that a paranormal phenomenon occurs under the conditions present in the laboratory paradigm, these conditions have limited applicability and utility for intelligence gathering operations. For example, the nature of the remote viewing targets are vastly dissimilar, as are the specific tasks required of the remote viewers. Most importantly, the information provided by remote viewing is vague and ambiguous, making it difficult, if not impossible, for the technique to yield information of sufficient quality and accuracy of information for actionable intelligence. Thus, we conclude that continued use of remote viewing in intelligence gathering operations is not warranted.

— Executive summary, "An Evaluation of Remote Viewing: Research and Applications", American Institutes for Research, Sept. 29, 1995
(source)

But judging from the number of paranormal sites that cite the project, it apparently is of sufficient quality to claim unambiguous evidence of past intelligent life on Mars.

From an interview with Joseph Moneagle, the Mars remote viewer:

Quote:
...he could only name one other occasion when he’d been asked to examine a similar target: a photograph that appeared to include incidental evidence of a UFO. On another occasion, he declined a request to mentally examine a similar object, reluctant to waste his time. “The problem that I have with targeting UFOs and Mars and things like that is that there’s no real way to validate the information,” he told me.
Quote:
Hoping to better understand McMoneagle’s experiences, I tracked down his home phone number and called him. Initially skeptical, he warmed to my inquiries when I brought up the CIA’s version of the viewing session.

“They shouldn’t have had that,” McMoneagle told me. He said that the visit to Mars had been requested not by the CIA but by an individual—who he declined to name—from the Army.

... He professed confusion about why the Army would have chosen such a target—one from which actionable intelligence was not immediately forthcoming. “I have not got a clue. Absolutely none. It was so totally out of left field for me,” he said. Indeed, he could only name one other occasion when he’d been asked to examine a similar target: a photograph that appeared to include incidental evidence of a UFO. On another occasion, he declined a request to mentally examine a similar object, reluctant to waste his time. “The problem that I have with targeting UFOs and Mars and things like that is that there’s no real way to validate the information,” he told me.
(source)

So the guy being interviewed had doubts about what he was being asked to do. Sounds to me like an individual from the army wanted to see what McMoneagle would say he saw on Mars to satisfy his own curiosity rather than further the project goals (the point of Stargate was the potential for gathering intelligence data on Earth, not Mars). The real problem with the believability article in question is the hypnotic regression part - he was being asked to see things from a million years ago. As I've stated here before (search the forum, I'm not going to put effort into providing data since it will likely be ignored), the information gathered via hypnotic regression has been proved to be unreliable.

From further down in the Slate article, an alternate possible explanation for reason behind the Mars remote viewing:

Quote:
A conspiracy theory about the U.S.’s Cold War–era paranormal activities holds that they had less to do with psychics than they did with psych-outs. Those who embrace this explanation suggest that such activities were designed to leak, potentially confusing other countries’ intelligence agencies about what the U.S. was up to. The military supposedly spent about $20 million—a figure that’s hard to definitively confirm but that’s cited in Ronson’s book and other reporting—on Star Gate and associated programs over the course of 20 years, a pittance within the larger framework of defense spending. That’s a potentially small price to pay, whether you’re trying to distract the KGB (which apparently had psychic spies of its own) or just spook some tin-pot dictator. If that’s true, the weirdness of the Mars Exploration remote viewing may have been the point.
You wrote:

Quote:
I dont see why it so hard to recognize these abilities are real, we are always learning more and more about the human body and mind, and what it can do, its not that big a deal imo, they are just mental abilities that some people have or have the ability to develop over time.
I'm not denying that there may be something real going on in remote viewing - what I am denying is the claim that the article in question provides unambiguous evidence of past intelligent life on Mars, and the notion that remote viewing is in any way a photographic representation of somewhere else. Two different things. Unlike Earth, Mars lost its atmosphere billions of years ago (solar storms blew it away due to the early loss of a strong electromagnetic field on Mars - and it's still blowing away) - there wasn't time for intelligent life to evolve (though it's likely there was enough time for life to develop - I'm putting my money on the probability of multicellular organisms like those that evolved in the early Cambrian on Earth). If there were intelligent aliens on Mars, they came from elsewhere. The prospects for terraforming Mars in the next few centuries now appear to be pretty bleak.

Last edited by Vasily; 11-18-2019 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 11-18-2019, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,966 posts, read 3,897,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
I have to ask myself why these types keep coming back to argue "against" again and again but I suppose we do the same "for". So, maybe it is for the fun of it.
Or maybe "these types" care about the truth. "Skeptics" like me and Mark S. have stated repeatedly for the past few years why we are participating here, and presented evidence of our long-time interest in these subjects. You and others seem to choose to ignore those posts, and focus on whatever "evidence" you can find that confirms your stereotype for our motives. As I've said before, this is getting old, Paul.
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Old 11-18-2019, 10:08 PM
 
Location: PRC
3,262 posts, read 3,370,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Or maybe "these types" care about the truth. "Skeptics" like me and Mark S. have stated repeatedly for the past few years why we are participating here, and presented evidence of our long-time interest in these subjects. You and others seem to choose to ignore those posts, and focus on whatever "evidence" you can find that confirms your stereotype for our motives. As I've said before, this is getting old, Paul.
I understand where you are coming from, but the thing is.... truth means different things to different people. If you are a science-type, then truth means scientifically provable, but if you are a believer-type, then truth is less fixed, concrete, and rigid. Truth for me is more of a feeling rather than a fact and the Earth reality is not a solid place with rigid boundaries.

It is something similar to the way you would explain something to a 5-year old - truth is only half(or less) of the story and what science can test at the moment is not the truth or the whole story. I dont think we will ever get the whole story because there is always more to truth than we think. I think the fact is, we get a very small picture of something and we call it the truth because we cannot understand (like a 5-year old) any more at the moment.

Yes, it is getting old - because we both have such different opinions of the way our world works, which is fundamental to our place in it. You feel safe thinking you know and understand the material physical universe with all its laws and you have science to test it. I recognise all things are energy and there is no such thing as material, physical, matter. Even the smallest or largest particle is only energy.
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Old 11-19-2019, 04:59 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
15,047 posts, read 12,232,809 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Or maybe "these types" care about the truth. "Skeptics" like me and Mark S. have stated repeatedly for the past few years why we are participating here, and presented evidence of our long-time interest in these subjects. You and others seem to choose to ignore those posts, and focus on whatever "evidence" you can find that confirms your stereotype for our motives. As I've said before, this is getting old, Paul.
Their new evidence is that they 'think differently'!

While we do need dreamers to point us in directions we have not explored; we also need those dreamers to give up when the evidence does not support their speculations. Of course they are welcome to keep trying; but they loose credibility.
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Old 11-19-2019, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
4,966 posts, read 3,897,925 times
Reputation: 9285
Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Yes, it is getting old - because we both have such different opinions of the way our world works, which is fundamental to our place in it. You feel safe thinking you know and understand the material physical universe with all its laws and you have science to test it. I recognise all things are energy and there is no such thing as material, physical, matter. Even the smallest or largest particle is only energy.
It's not an either/or, Paul - and that's where the real problem lies in the miscommunications that happen in this forum. I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian (as was Theodosius Dobzhansky, one of the architects of the mid-20th century neo-Darwinian synthesis). Eastern Orthodox theology is mystical by nature - yet we have no problem acknowledging that at a physical level science describes the rules that govern how things work (a previous parish I attended was near Fermi Labs in Illinois, and we had several theoretical physicists who were members of the congregation), while everything is permeated by the Divine Energies. Yet there are miracles - I know people who have been in the presence of them.

The conflicts happen when a devotee of scientism as the only explanation for the world insists that paranormal experiences can't exist because they don't fit into the reductionist world view of the radical materialist. I have never taken that position in this forum or anywhere else, and if that's what you believe than you either haven't paid real attention to my posts over the years or you're totally misjudging me. Or a devotee of woo like yourself believes everything is a miracle and sees any questioning as an attack on their world view rather than an attempt to clarify. Neither is true.

What gets old is the misjudging by the devotees of woo of those of us who dare to question statements like "remote viewing has shown that there were intelligent aliens on Mars". That's either true, or it's not true. There aren't multiple versions of truth - to believe so is to fall for the postmodernist lie. The devotees of woo seem to want everything to be accepted unconditionally - as long as it's a woo explanation rather than a logical explanation.
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