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Old 10-30-2021, 02:17 PM
 
1,267 posts, read 838,797 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatesDude View Post
So what? Will future aliens come up with math in which 2+2= 5 ? We understand the laws of physics well enough to power ships and submarines at sea, to use electron spin to send info , and to allow people to debate how much science knows by tapping on keyboards and having words appear instantly on other people’s computer or phone screens thousands of miles away . On what basis does anyone believe we have erred in testing the speed of light limitations ?


Keep in mind that we are talking logical probabilities here . Which is more likely , that our science is correct , or that it is wrong and aliens are flying dozens or hundreds of light years at faster than c in violation of our understanding of physics we prove by employing it daily , to experiment on us ?

Oh, i'm not suggesting that Einsteinian physics may be wrong or that an advanced civilization will propel matter beyond light speed without infinite mass increase after all.

I'm referring to the means by which the light speed limit could be gotten around. Things like warp or wormhole tech. A civilization far older, or just far smarter, given enough time may very well master the nuances of these things in ways humans arent close to understanding yet. There is still alot to learn about gravity and potential gravity manipulation, as well as particle physics.


As for the UFO phenomenon itself, i really dont have an opinion on the matter. Clearer evidence is needed to determine whats going on. There have definitely been what appear to be objects, as opposed to atmospheric phenomena, performing speeds beyond what we are capable of. Of the two most often mentioned possibilities, aliens from another world is the least worrisome.

Last edited by TheArchitect; 10-30-2021 at 03:36 PM..
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Old 10-30-2021, 05:52 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatesDude View Post
That aliens are here living in the deep oceans, or on Earth but in a different dimensions, transferring back and forth into pure energy, being beamed around the universe.

Why is "maybe they are not real but misunderstanding or illusions" not a consideration instead of the far out stuff?
What's far out about morphing back and forth between matter & energy? Einstein said it was possible. It could be one potential solution to the dilemma you present.
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Old 10-30-2021, 08:35 PM
 
1,799 posts, read 444,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
Oh, i'm not suggesting that Einsteinian physics may be wrong or that an advanced civilization will propel matter beyond light speed without infinite mass increase after all.

I'm referring to the means by which the light speed limit could be gotten around. Things like warp or wormhole tech. A civilization far older, or just far smarter, given enough time may very well master the nuances of these things in ways humans arent close to understanding yet. There is still alot to learn about gravity and potential gravity manipulation, as well as particle physics.

True.

As I said earlier, I dont see wormholes, if they even exist, as being the answer, unless they are extremely common or are manueverable. One theoretical concept is that one black hole could be linked to another black hole, with travel through it being a wormhole to a faraway part of the galaxy or even another galaxy. The physics of living beings moving through 2 black holes aside, this wouldnt do much good. I think the closest black hole to us is 1500 light years away, so FTL speed from the black hole to here would still be necessary. Wormholes would have to be close enough to travel reasonable distances at a small percentage of c . Warp drive theory runs into the FTL rule also , in that some part of the warp bubble is moving through and touching normal space , even if the spaceship itself is closed off from normal space in the warp bubble. So whatever part of the warp bubble that is in contact with normal space is moving FTL. Also, there is the information problem. Data cannot go FTL , so how do you send data ahead of a ship going FTL to establish the warp bubble in front of the spaceship?

From theoretical speculations, Asimov has the best possible solution, with hyperspace. Exit normal space into hyperspace and return at any point you want, within safety bounds , which in Asimov's invention means not entering back into normal space inside the gravity well of a sun or black hole. Of course no one has a clue if this even exists , but if we arent going to rely on reality we might as well go with the solution that doesnt violate known laws of physics .
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Old 10-31-2021, 04:46 AM
 
Location: PRC
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We can draw conclusions from observations reported over and over again.

We have 'something' which is moving trans-medium. That is going from air to water to ...whatever, without any splash/crash/dripping of water/etc.
We have 'something' appearing to be in one part of the sky and then in a totally different part of the sky in a matter of moments. This is potentially 100's of miles apart.
We have 'something' which can go so slowly as to stop in mid-air without noise using no flight surfaces.
We have eye-witness reports which do not show up on RADAR.
We have IR camera images of these 'somethings' but nothing on visible light cameras.

I dont know what conclusion we can draw from just these few examples, and I am sure there are other characteristics which can be used to describe this phenomena. So, someone more qualified than me has probably ana;lysed this and come up with some ideas what might be happening.

I have heard from reading and listening to various accounts, that this technology has something to do with anti-gravity and reality/dimensional/time changes mean the craft can 'fall' into a gravity well in front of the craft. Bob Lazar (if you think he is reliable) suggests that we need to use a new kind of engine back-engineered from alien craft which can create a new mode of transport.
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Old 10-31-2021, 04:53 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
6,417 posts, read 3,611,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
What's far out about morphing back and forth between matter & energy? Einstein said it was possible. It could be one potential solution to the dilemma you present.
As I said earlier-- if you jump from matter -->energy--> matter, is the second matter the same as the first? Maybe it is on the quantum level, but on the macro-level, every little quark would have to be reconstituted in exactly the same postion it held in the first place or it wouldn't be "the same."

In regards worm holes-- they do exist on the quantum level. Even space and time are quantized. That's meaningful when youre a quark, jumpiing from one spot to the next, but meaningless to the elephant lumbering thru the jungle....and even for the quark-- how many random jumps one quatum of space at a time would it take to travel 100 light years? Improbablity to the point of impossibility.
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Old 10-31-2021, 05:02 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
6,417 posts, read 3,611,987 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
What's far out about morphing back and forth between matter & energy? Einstein said it was possible. It could be one potential solution to the dilemma you present.
As I said earlier-- if you jump from matter -->energy--> matter, is the second matter the same as the first? Maybe it is on the quantum level, but on the macro-level, every little quark would have to be reconstituted in exactly the same postion it held in the first place or it wouldn't be "the same."

In regards worm holes-- they do exist on the quantum level. Even space and time are quantized. That's meaningful when youre a quark, jumpiing from one spot to the next, but meaningless to the elephant lumbering thru the jungle....and even for the quark-- how many random jumps one quatum of space at a time would it take to travel 100 light years? Improbablity to the point of impossibility.
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Old 10-31-2021, 02:39 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 529,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Einstein's theory of relativity is one of the few theories that has never met with any serious arguments/observations/experiments against it. As you know, the speed of light can never be acieved by matter, but nothing says it can't be approached closely....Let's say these super aliens can solve the energy problems involved with getting their saucers to go that fast, includng the problem of time to accellerate to & decellerate fom flying near "c".....

...Don't make the mistake of assuming "they" experience time & aging & gravity (physiological problems associated with acelleration/decelleration) the way we do. A flight of 100 yrs may not be a problem to them.

BTW- if they're smart enoygh to solve all these problems and to get here, maybe we should be hiding from them, not actively trying let them know we're here.
I've thought the same thing, any civilization tech advanced enough to travel across the galaxy would view us like we view rats, our top scientists and engineers and the work they do would look to them like a kindergarten science fair, "aaww ain't that cute, they figured out how to split atoms" in other words our smartest people on the planet would be almost as smart as their toddlers.

We better hope if aliens do ever arrive they have a "woke" tree hugging like culture.
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Old 10-31-2021, 02:52 PM
 
1,250 posts, read 529,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Einstein's theory of relativity is one of the few theories that has never met with any serious arguments/observations/experiments against it. As you know, the speed of light can never be acieved by matter, but nothing says it can't be approached closely....Let's say these super aliens can solve the energy problems involved with getting their saucers to go that fast, includng the problem of time to accellerate to & decellerate fom flying near "c".....

...Don't make the mistake of assuming "they" experience time & aging & gravity (physiological problems associated with acelleration/decelleration) the way we do. A flight of 100 yrs may not be a problem to them.

BTW- if they're smart enoygh to solve all these problems and to get here, maybe we should be hiding from them, not actively trying let them know we're here.
I've thought the same thing, any civilization tech advanced enough to travel across the galaxy would view us like we view rats, our top scientists and engineers and the work they do would look to them like a kindergarten science fair, "aaww ain't that cute, they figured out how to split atoms" in other words our smartest people on the planet would be almost as smart as their toddlers.

We better hope if aliens do ever arrive they have a "woke" tree hugging like culture.
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Old 10-31-2021, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
18,711 posts, read 16,527,105 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatesDude View Post
True.

As I said earlier, I dont see wormholes, if they even exist, as being the answer, unless they are extremely common or are manueverable. One theoretical concept is that one black hole could be linked to another black hole, with travel through it being a wormhole to a faraway part of the galaxy or even another galaxy. The physics of living beings moving through 2 black holes aside, this wouldnt do much good. I think the closest black hole to us is 1500 light years away, so FTL speed from the black hole to here would still be necessary. Wormholes would have to be close enough to travel reasonable distances at a small percentage of c . Warp drive theory runs into the FTL rule also , in that some part of the warp bubble is moving through and touching normal space , even if the spaceship itself is closed off from normal space in the warp bubble. So whatever part of the warp bubble that is in contact with normal space is moving FTL. Also, there is the information problem. Data cannot go FTL , so how do you send data ahead of a ship going FTL to establish the warp bubble in front of the spaceship?

From theoretical speculations, Asimov has the best possible solution, with hyperspace. Exit normal space into hyperspace and return at any point you want, within safety bounds , which in Asimov's invention means not entering back into normal space inside the gravity well of a sun or black hole. Of course no one has a clue if this even exists , but if we arent going to rely on reality we might as well go with the solution that doesnt violate known laws of physics .
One little thing that has always bothered me is how any advanced civilization would avoid collisions as its spaceships go faster and faster. Most of space is a void. But, if one would be traveling to the different solar systems, then the odds are greater that they would eventually encounter asteroid belts and stray space debris. Also, there is always that chance of encountering a black hole in one's travels or other dark matter. Quick maneuvers might be impossible as speed increases. It would also require advanced sensors to warn of these hidden dangers.

What do wormhole theorists think about avoiding hidden problems? Could advanced civilizations pass through hidden objects using wormholes? How much energy would be required for advanced 'shield' protection systems? Are shield systems even possible?
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Old 10-31-2021, 11:54 PM
 
28,124 posts, read 10,643,187 times
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Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
One little thing that has always bothered me is how any advanced civilization would avoid collisions as its spaceships go faster and faster. Most of space is a void. But, if one would be traveling to the different solar systems, then the odds are greater that they would eventually encounter asteroid belts and stray space debris. Also, there is always that chance of encountering a black hole in one's travels or other dark matter. Quick maneuvers might be impossible as speed increases. It would also require advanced sensors to warn of these hidden dangers.

What do wormhole theorists think about avoiding hidden problems? Could advanced civilizations pass through hidden objects using wormholes? How much energy would be required for advanced 'shield' protection systems? Are shield systems even possible?
No one has yet provided any evidence that these things are coming from another planet out in space, Hollywood is the origin of this theory (back in the 50s), and then everyone just assumed UFOs must be from another planet out there somewhere.


How many UFO reports have you seen from space telescope viewers? Every single UFO report I have seen, the craft is seen in our skies.
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