NASA Has a Theory for Why We Might Be Alone in the Universe (lights, Egyptian)

[1insider]

I do not think the military has craft that can do what those "trans-medium" observations appear to show. I think observation illusion can explain every sighting that appears to do something impossible.

The lack of solid evidence speaks very loudly against alien visitation. It's far too unlikely for me to make the leap even with the entirety of the evidence accumulated since the first sighting. I don't begrudge anyone their belief but I require better evidence than we have. I've been wanting them to visit since reading Pebble in the Sky as a teenager. Sadly, my subsequent education in and understanding of math, physics and cosmology has given me a higher threshold for belief.

[davidt1]

I subscribe to the Occam's Razor theory.

1. We don't see aliens because they don't exist.

2. They exist. We haven't seen them because of the immense distance and time it takes to get here, assuming that there are any other technological species out there.

[ocpaul20]

Originally Posted by 1insider

I do not think the military has craft that can do what those "trans-medium" observations appear to show. I think observation illusion can explain every sighting that appears to do something impossible.

The lack of solid evidence speaks very loudly against alien visitation. It's far too unlikely for me to make the leap even with the entirety of the evidence accumulated since the first sighting. I don't begrudge anyone their belief but I require better evidence than we have. I've been wanting them to visit since reading Pebble in the Sky as a teenager. Sadly, my subsequent education in and understanding of math, physics and cosmology has given me a higher threshold for belief.

I cannot change your beliefs but I can ask what "observation illusion" is? - bearing in mind some of those people are highly trained military personnel who should know and be able to describe what they see. Why dont you think these craft are military in origin?

Many people think it is far more likely that the military has this kind of advanced craft than they are alien craft. I think they are both. As far as I can see, the only other explanation is that they are natural phenomena but some of them do seem to act intelligently. How does a natural phenomena do that?

We need to look at the data, and come up with explanations because "I dont know" will not work any longer now that the government is claiming a threat to national security (which I dont believe anyway). It is people who give this answer who will be the ones who allow the government to get away with ANOTHER war with no evidence of wrongdoing. Have you forgotten there were no weapons of mass destruction found after the event?

[1insider]

Originally Posted by ocpaul20

I cannot change your beliefs but I can ask what "observation illusion" is? - bearing in mind some of those people are highly trained military personnel who should know and be able to describe what they see. Why dont you think these craft are military in origin?

Many people think it is far more likely that the military has this kind of advanced craft than they are alien craft. I think they are both. As far as I can see, the only other explanation is that they are natural phenomena but some of them do seem to act intelligently. How does a natural phenomena do that?

We need to look at the data, and come up with explanations because "I dont know" will not work any longer now that the government is claiming a threat to national security (which I dont believe anyway). It is people who give this answer who will be the ones who allow the government to get away with ANOTHER war with no evidence of wrongdoing. Have you forgotten there were no weapons of mass destruction found after the event?

Observation illusion like parallax effect and stuff like the Phoenix lights. Nimitz, Go Fast, and Gimbal sightings were reasonably explained by Mick West.

[

video]

The military craft I was referring to are the "trans-medium" craft you mentioned. I only think they are not military because I don't believe they exist at all. There is no evidence to suggest any craft has moved through a solid object unharmed nor that an airborne UAP has entered the water and continued to perform while submerged. I have seen one video that shows what appears to be an object entering the water. Please point me towards any evidence that any have entered the water and continued to be observed.

I agree with you that I don't believe there is a threat to national security unless the military has identified some of them as enemy craft. I think observation illusion of some sort is more likely than natural phenomena or secret military craft for most of the sightings. I do put a little credence into the idea that some of the encounters may have been enemy drones testing our detection capabilities and response.

I am open to changing my mind with convincing evidence. I've said many times that I can't make the leap to alien visitors because the math and physics make that the least likely explanation. William of Ockham would never jump to aliens when more believable explanations are available and I subscribe to his logic.

[ocpaul20]

Originally Posted by 1insider

Observation illusion like parallax effect and stuff like the Phoenix lights. Nimitz, Go Fast, and Gimbal sightings were reasonably explained by Mick West.

[

video]

The military craft I was referring to are the "trans-medium" craft you mentioned. I only think they are not military because I don't believe they exist at all. There is no evidence to suggest any craft has moved through a solid object unharmed nor that an airborne UAP has entered the water and continued to perform while submerged. I have seen one video that shows what appears to be an object entering the water. Please point me towards any evidence that any have entered the water and continued to be observed.

I agree with you that I don't believe there is a threat to national security unless the military has identified some of them as enemy craft. I think observation illusion of some sort is more likely than natural phenomena or secret military craft for most of the sightings. I do put a little credence into the idea that some of the encounters may have been enemy drones testing our detection capabilities and response.

I am open to changing my mind with convincing evidence. I've said many times that I can't make the leap to alien visitors because the math and physics make that the least likely explanation. William of Ockham would never jump to aliens when more believable explanations are available and I subscribe to his logic.

If other countries have this technology, then there is a massive problem, but we think we know that the USA is the world leader in this type of technology. This means it is unlikely to be some other country which has leaped ahead of the US.

Just because the current laws of physics do not allow for these things, you dont accept them? What of the laws of physics yet to be discovered (or revealed)? What about the physics done in secret labs? Is that an impossibility? No, it is a certainty.

So, you cannot accept ANY of the thousands apon thousands of reports over the centuries? What, none? You think every single case reported across those centuries is explained as a believable explanation - like swamp gas I suppose?
We all now know that was an explanation given to avoid panic and to continue the governments clampdown on UFO information release. Yet, you still prefer it to some other less believable explanation? How safe and comforting.

So, I ask you, what would cause something in one of these craft to act in an intelligent manner? Maybe an intelligent something (being or AI) at the controls? That would be the logical answer to the question. Now, that might be a human or it might be non-human but it certainly is not a natural atmospheric phenomenon, so I think you can rule that out of you likely explanations.

You dont know what it is maybe? Aren't you curious? Dont you want to find out? Where are the scientists who are representing us in looking into these phenomena? None are poking their head above the parapet, so what are we who are curious to do about that?

[1insider]

Originally Posted by ocpaul20

1. Just because the current laws of physics do not allow for these things, you dont accept them?
2. What of the laws of physics yet to be discovered (or revealed)?
3. What about the physics done in secret labs? Is that an impossibility?
   
4. So, you cannot accept ANY of the thousands apon thousands of reports over the centuries? What, none?
5. You think every single case reported across those centuries is explained as a believable explanation - like swamp gas I suppose?
6. We all now know that was an explanation given to avoid panic and to continue the governments clampdown on UFO information release. Yet, you still prefer it to some other less believable explanation?
   
7. So, I ask you, what would cause something in one of these craft to act in an intelligent manner?
8. Maybe an intelligent something (being or AI) at the controls?
   
9. You dont know what it is maybe?
10. Aren't you curious?
11. Dont you want to find out?
12. Where are the scientists who are representing us in looking into these phenomena?
13. None are poking their head above the parapet, so what are we who are curious to do about that?

I've already answered most of those questions in previous posts but I'll run down your list and repeat them

1. It's not that I don't accept them, I just don't believe that alien craft is a logical assumption.
2. I'm sure there are many discoveries yet to be made in physics. Needing a new major discovery contrary to the known laws of physics to justify your conclusion of aliens is not persuasive.
3. The world of physics is being explored in many labs. There are almost certainly secret labs working on who knows what.
4. I accept that people have seen unidentified things, not aliens.
5. I don't believe any of them come close to suggesting that the craft observed are alien spacecraft. I never mentioned swamp gas. That's something alien-UFO believers toss out to discredit skeptics.
6. I did not say I believed swamp gas as an explanation for UFOs. Responding to your accusation is the first time I've typed those words in this forum. Alien craft is the least believable explanation for any sighting to date.
7. We control all sorts of aerial aircraft remotely and by preprogrammed flight patterns
8. Perhaps. If it is an actual "craft".
9. Correct. I do not know what it is.
10. Yes. I am curious.
11. Yes. I want very much to have a solid answer for every single sighting.
12. Well there's the very large group of scientists and laypeople from various disciplines who are involved with SETI who have been diligently looking for evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence for decades without finding anything so far. And we have NASA with assorted projects looking outward for exactly what you claim to already be here.
13. Those of us who are curious (I include myself in that group) keep looking and putting each new piece of evidence together in hopes we'll one day have solid evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence. Until that day, I will not make the mistake of assuming alien visitation because I so fervently want that to be the case.

I very much hope that one day you get to say to me, "I told you." Until then I will not let my hope override my rationality.

[ocpaul20]

And as I have also indicated, I am looking for some kind of opinion from you. But none is forthcoming. I wonder why that is?

If you ARE a scientist on a scientific forum, then it is understandable you would not want to speculate. However, this is NOT a science forum and speculation is what we often do here.

Science is currently a big let-down and does not now serve the people in answering questions and unraveling mysteries, yet it often arrogantly dismisses proposed solutions and always needs more data. Then, there are a scientists who do not agree with each other - each side publishes papers to defend their side of the argument which leaves the people (who aren't scientists) not knowing what to believe. Debate is good but if science needs facts and data then that should be the deciding factor. Unfortunately life is not black and white.

Well-known credible scientists such as Avi Loeb suffer the negative comments of other scientists. Even when they present arguments for their theories which hold some weight. If you remember, he suggested oumuamua might be an alien-made craft and wrote a book to present the evidence. A 'normal' comet or asteroid did not fit the observed facts. So, we wait for another similar object to pass through the Solar System and maybe we will be able to find more clues to get more scientists on board.

[JBtwinz]

I have always subscribed to two belief’s

First is I firmly believe that what we think are UFO’s are military craft. We had the predecessor to the B1 bomber (silver V wing) in the late 40’s, we had the SR-71 to name a few. These technologies were pretty advanced for the time period they were in. UAV’s right now that we know of are pretty incredible. Imagine the ones we do not know of.

Second it is unimaginable to believe we are alone in a universe where the possibilities of it’s distance or ending is infinity. I can’t grasp the fact that we could be alone in such a huge universe.

I think until science, innovation and technology can make a significant leap it might take several generations until we maybe finally find out how far or deep the universe goes.

Since before Columbus we have been explorers yet we have finally come to a time in history that we can’t readily find out if we are alone or where the universe ends.

I believe those seeing perhaps secret flights of these types of planes might have thought they saw a flying saucer:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-49

[Oklazona Bound]

Originally Posted by 1insider

I've already answered most of those questions in previous posts but I'll run down your list and repeat them

1. It's not that I don't accept them, I just don't believe that alien craft is a logical assumption.
2. I'm sure there are many discoveries yet to be made in physics. Needing a new major discovery contrary to the known laws of physics to justify your conclusion of aliens is not persuasive.
3. The world of physics is being explored in many labs. There are almost certainly secret labs working on who knows what.
4. I accept that people have seen unidentified things, not aliens.
5. I don't believe any of them come close to suggesting that the craft observed are alien spacecraft. I never mentioned swamp gas. That's something alien-UFO believers toss out to discredit skeptics.
6. I did not say I believed swamp gas as an explanation for UFOs. Responding to your accusation is the first time I've typed those words in this forum. Alien craft is the least believable explanation for any sighting to date.
7. We control all sorts of aerial aircraft remotely and by preprogrammed flight patterns
8. Perhaps. If it is an actual "craft".
9. Correct. I do not know what it is.
10. Yes. I am curious.
11. Yes. I want very much to have a solid answer for every single sighting.
12. Well there's the very large group of scientists and laypeople from various disciplines who are involved with SETI who have been diligently looking for evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence for decades without finding anything so far. And we have NASA with assorted projects looking outward for exactly what you claim to already be here.
13. Those of us who are curious (I include myself in that group) keep looking and putting each new piece of evidence together in hopes we'll one day have solid evidence of extra-terrestrial intelligence. Until that day, I will not make the mistake of assuming alien visitation because I so fervently want that to be the case.

I very much hope that one day you get to say to me, "I told you." Until then I will not let my hope override my rationality.

I am all for aliens landing here and stating that the times they are a changing. And whatever that means. If they have made it here and hopefully have something to offer humanity. That is a good thing. Might be the best chance for humanity.

[ocpaul20]

Science which embraces anti-gravity propulsion is likely to also involve an element of time as well as the nature of matter. We see them disappearing from one place and appearing (or not) almost instantaneously in another, or going from one medium to another without a splash.

This is probably not just a 100 year jump in technology but greater than that, since we might be talking time, gravity, and maybe even consciousness too?