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Old 09-03-2009, 11:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
The temperature of Mercury's sunlight side is 950 degrees. The temperature of the dark side is 210 degrees, substantially hotter than ours.
To conclude that Mercury's dark side is "substantually hotter than ours" is not correct. Those temperature figures sound closer to the Kelvin scale. On the Fahrenheit and Celsius scales, the sun-exposed side of Mercury is around 800 F (430 C). The shadowed side of the planet is about -261 F (-163 C). It's thought that some of the polar craters that never see sunlight could be as cold as -297 F
(-183 C).
How Hot is Mercury?


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
Jack and Jill do not become people, whatever constitutes that (tangential to your positing "what is reality?"), at the same time, even within physical proximity. Jack and Jill becoming who they are does not happen at birth. It happens some time in the womb.

And inside or outside of the womb, there will be people who are similar regarding some aspects (their particular flavor of humanness) of human behavior. Twins can be vastly different, as can identical twins, but succumb to similar influences that affect behavior.
I fully agree with you. Astrologists rely on the position of the planets and stars in relation to date of birth and location. It sounds like it has a lot of flash, but as the example I gave shows, it's meaningless as a point of reference to calculate for a chart. What if Jack and Jill's mothers were only one foot apart when giving birth, but both gave birth at the exact same time? So much for accurate readings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
You seem to be caught up on astrology predicting the future. Whether it can or can't does not concern me. I don't believe that it can. But what I am talking about that I find interesting about astrology is that it may be able to explain why a certain human behavior is more likely to occur for some people over others at a given time in correllation to the position of known, exospheric influences. I seem to remember something called biorhythms being a popular catch-phrase a few years back that reminds me of what I am thinking about.
Let me clarify my views on astrology as best I can. I have yet to see anything convincing that astrology is anything other than superstition. It's as accurate as looking into a crystal ball to see the future. Since you don't believe it can predict the future, then you and I are both in agreement. However, what is the purpose of astrology if not to predict the future?

If you assume that astrology might explain certain kinds of human behavior, then please explain what the position of various stars, planets, and constellations have to do with human behavior.

There are stars, planets, and constellations of one kind or another that shine on people depending on which hemisphere you're in. And yet, that's exactly what astrologers use, in addition to the time and location of your birth. Does that mean astrologers figure the exact moment you are considered to be alive is the moment you're out of the womb and taking the first breaths of air? Seems to me kids can be pretty active long before birth.

To be fair, astronomy does have its roots in astrology. The difference is that astrology tends to try to explain things by linking unrelated elements without any real support, kind of like if I see a cloud in the sky that looks like a dog, it must mean that dogs come from the sky. I think we pretty well know where dogs come from.

Yes, I remember the biorhythm craze. Clever, but proves nothing unless a person wants to believe it does. Believing something is true, doesn't necessarily make it true.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
Which is exactly why we have no idea how certain influences can change the "polarity" of an electrochemical reaction to it.
I think you're still missing the point. I don't doubt at the quantum scale particles do indeed have an influence of some kind. Obviously they do, otherwise nothing would exist, including us. But I think we have to understand that while there are indeed relationships between scales, at the same time each scale serves it's own purpose.

Let me give you an example using the 3 dimensions of length, width, and height. If you draw a line between Point A and Point B, you have a single line which is the 1st dimension. It's nothing more than that. Now if you add a 2nd dimension to make the line wider by intersecting lines to the 1st dimension, you then have a flat shape in two dimensions like a square. Finally, by adding a 3rd dimension to give the square height, you have a cube. Each one of those dimensions interact together, but they are also independent dimensions. In other words a cube is not a flat two-dimensional shape.

The point is that although we are made of quantum particles, and so are stars, planets and everything else in the universe, we do not live at the scale of quantum particles. The quantum particles are arranged in such a way that just happens to enable us to exist. We live in a very different "dimension" (so to speak) than quantum particles do.

Are there weird things about us and the universe? Absolutely. And quite remarkable as well. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of things that can and do have an effect on us. But I'm a bit skeptical that the position of planets, stars, etc., make a big difference in terms of how our future will turn out.

If these things have an effect that can mess with the electro-chemical polarity of your brain and body which modifies your behavior, then we would have to say everyone undergoes the same behavioral changes because the exact same celestial bodies are out there shining down on everyone regardless of where or when you were born.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
Part of us must exist on a quantum level if we are made partly of that, right? Just playing the advocate...
Again, being made of quantum particles doesn't mean we live at the quantum level. If there's any way to describe it, it might be that we're more of an end result of the combined activity of various quantum particles. But why stop there? Why not include strings that quantum particles are thought to be made of? Why not include whatever happens at the Planck level? It gets pretty complicated, doesn't it. LOL!


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
A man named Maeterlink wrote a book where he postulated that flowers absorb energy from the sun and have the ability to transfer tiny bits of that energy to heat the earth when needed and at the most benefial moment. He argued that the ability to withold or control the conservation of energy that it was a crude type of intelligence. Sorry I don't have a page number.
Well, that's just one point of view. Part of it has merit, but I don't know that it's a definition of intelligence, crude or not. If that's the case, then think about that flower you snap off to put in a vase. Think about the pain that plant went through by having part of it's body ripped and severed off. Maybe that plant has it's own was of screaming in agony. There was someone who claimed that plants have feelings, can recognize danger, and can communicate by releasing certain kinds of chemicals in the ground that other similar plants can react to. I'll never eat another carrot again. And rocks. What about rocks? They're made of quantum particles too. How do we know they don't have some kind of crude intelligence? Sorry, I couldn't resist that. LOL!


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
I cannot define the moment myself, but I am talking about when a person becomes a person, when mitosis stops and the body is as whole as it is going to get. Imagine the human genome project and amount of material there is in DNA. And then imagine the flux within just before there are no more changes. That snapshot would be a picture of what one person is and what would differentiate them from somebody else. Then you can imagine what influences are ambient and how they would in make a grouping of people who become whole at that time are susceptible to similar influences, and other people would not be.
Hmm. Sorry, you lost me with that. I'm not sure what you mean.


Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
Aye! The rub again.
Don't let it rub too much. It might cause a rash. LOL! When it comes to infinite probabilities all bets are off and anything goes. On the other hand, trying to find a specific but unknown needle in a bale of straw like that is impossible, because it contains an infinite number of straws.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Home
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Wow, lotsa comments on here, and forgive me for not reading all of theme here at work, but there are a few things I see in Astrology that are not directly related to its truth or not, but more to human nature in general.

First is the whole sign thing. Sounds silly giving every June born person a certain base, but it is not silly when you consider different development stages and what time of the year those stages would occur in.

When would a Leo have his/her birthday party? In the northern hemisphere, it would be in the summer. It would be outside, it would be a different one than a Pisces in the snow and slush of Winters end.

But that does not cover those that live in the south. Ever notice how Astrologers introduce other "factors" into the mix. Ones that have no real direct bearing on the actual causes for behavior, but happen at about the same time. Saying this constellation or that planet is in ascendancy, etc etc.

They rarely say that this person was born in South America, and therefore their seasonal cycles are flipped. NO! It has to be Capricorn in the XX quadrant!

Which brings me to my second big point. Astrology may indeed be able to predict generalities in a persons day/life, but not because they CAUSE them. More traffic on Labor Day is not because of the position of the sun, but the fact that it is a holiday. You can try to make a set of astrological conditions that would, in effect, mirror and time the actual cause and effect that is occurring, but they do not play any role themselves in the motivation of these events.

THAT is the key. You get enough variables and you can start assigning whatever weird rule you want to that combination, whether they make logical sense or not. The chances of that SPECIFIC combo coming up is so rare, you will almost never be contradicted.


Lastly is our own desire to match patterns and similarities. You give a person a picture, badly blurred, of a person, and they are more likely to identify them than if you were to do the same with a building or other item. We are just wired to be able to do that free association.

Combine that with our minds annoying habit of taking pattern for granted and irregularities as special. The classic "every time I do this" or similar associations are, for the most part, random occurrences if you actually take the time to count them more carefully.

Example: This light is always red when I am late

OK, start counting the times it is red, and how long the red to green cycle is. I would bet money that once you started getting over about 20 times, you will see the ratio, late or not, to be exactly coincident with the timing of the light, not the fact that you were late.

We do the same thing with horoscopes. the general ones are VERY general, like "you will see someone important today". Wow. Is that your SO? A celebrity? A politician? In person or on the news? If you WANT to believe the statement is true, you will find SOMETHING that fits.

Well, that's about it. Astrology is an unreliable, direct post-event mapping that tries to map enough points of a persons behavioral pattern to other celestial events on the same cycle. Every so often, they get it right, but seeing how people have many more cycles and external influences, most of the predictions are just guesses that any psycologist could probably give knowing the person well enough.

The important thing to remember is that, aside from probably the moon and the sun, nothing is close enough to effect you more than the stapler on the desk in front of you.
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Old 09-05-2009, 11:25 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
The work of Gauquelin is very persuasive Michel Gauquelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not fact checked anything in his work, but it seems to follow logic and common sense.

However, I seriously doubt that enough of the effect remains in humans to yield any measurable influence, so as a practical matter, I would not place any stock in astrology's capacity to predict human behavior.
Thanks for pointing out Gauquelin's study, where he basically found a significant statistical connection between people's occupation and their natal horoscope. Another well-known study was done by no less than famed psychologist Carl Jung, who compared the charts of aprox. 500 couples and found that successful relationships had strong recurring astrological links between the partner's birthcharts.

But all the studies or data in the world will make no difference if folks are gonna just dismiss something out of hand, even when they know even less about it than they do quantum physics. And the fact of the matter is, that whether or not astrology "works" or not is irrelevant, if almost all the "logical, scientific thinkers" and snarky naysayers here obviously don't have a clue to begin with about the subject they're so casually ridiculing. Even the "mechanism" for gravity is still a subject for debate, and quantum mechanics was virtually unknown 100 years ago, so how can anyone be so arrogantly dismissive of a system that's managed to endure for thousands of years, let alone that they really know nothing about (aside from their prejudices)? That's like critiquing an automobile when you can't tell the difference between a carburetor and a transaxle. For example, what does a "rulership", sextile, north node, "House" or "Element" mean (all basic components of astrology)?

And speaking of quantum physics, there's finally scientific agreement for Einstein's once controversial idea that space and time are not only connected, but that they're both being continually "bent" & influenced by matter (as for example, large heavenly bodies, i.e. planets & stars). Isn't that basically what astrology has been saying all along?

Last edited by mateo45; 09-05-2009 at 11:39 PM..
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Old 09-06-2009, 12:45 AM
 
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Well, haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if I repeat someone else's thoughts.

I think about it this way. If you see it as use of the sky as a large clock and that there are time based or seasonal variations in things, sure it may have some merit. The chinese called their astrologers something like "chonologers" or "timers" as I've seen in some translations.

But the idea that somehow the planet Jupiter itself exerts some significant and direct influence? I give that much less credence.

So to me the problem is the type of mythological verbiage that has arisen around the subject.

So if you could get rid of all the mumbo jumbo and just say things like, "folks born between 1 and 20 days into the fall tend to have trait X for [fill in a valid reason] and the position of the constellation Virgo tracks that nicely" then all the hocus-pocus "cosmic" mumbo jumbo could be dispensed with and investigation of the underlying patterns could be studied.
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Old 09-06-2009, 12:47 AM
 
Location: southern california
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propensities but not controlling factors.
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Old 09-06-2009, 10:05 AM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
propensities but not controlling factors.
Maybe that's what really bugs alot of folks about astrology.... the idea that somehow they don't have freewill or that they're not "in control", but that instead they might be influenced by some "mysterious" outside forces and that they're not really as "unique" or "special" as they believe.

Of course if that's the issue, we could make the same complaints about religion, politics or advertising!
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Old 09-06-2009, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
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propensities but not controlling factors; as said above.
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Old 09-07-2009, 02:01 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manquaman View Post
propensities but not controlling factors; as said above.
Then you don't understand astrology (and what you're talking about). Because astrologers aren't saying that Jupiter, Mars, whatever, "controls" anything, anymore than the big hand or little hand on a clock "controls" the time.
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Old 09-07-2009, 03:01 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mateo45 View Post
Maybe that's what really bugs alot of folks about astrology.... the idea that somehow they don't have freewill or that they're not "in control", but that instead they might be influenced by some "mysterious" outside forces and that they're not really as "unique" or "special" as they believe.

What mysterious forces would that be?

Your point that people are not really as "unique" or "special" as they believe, doesn't make a lot of sense. While it's true there are things people have in common with others, it's also true that each individual is indeed completely unique. To be anything other than that would require two identical people occupying the same identical space at the same identical time and have the same identical experiences. If that were possible (and it isn't), then you wouldn't have two different people. You'd only have one. Everything in the universe is separated by space.
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Old 09-07-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Originally Posted by NightBazaar View Post
What mysterious forces would that be?

Your point that people are not really as "unique" or "special" as they believe, doesn't make a lot of sense. While it's true there are things people have in common with others, it's also true that each individual is indeed completely unique. To be anything other than that would require two identical people occupying the same identical space at the same identical time and have the same identical experiences. If that were possible (and it isn't), then you wouldn't have two different people. You'd only have one. Everything in the universe is separated by space.
Am only suggesting that some folks may actually be bothered by some vague (and ignorant) idea of "mysterious astrological forces" controlling them. Am not saying that astrology supports that idea.

Your semantic arguments aside, "unique" or 'special" is all relative anyway. And astrology has never said that anyone is "identical". Yet is it so untrue (or irrelevant), to say that some folks may share a common nationality, ancestry, race, eye color, appearance, whatever (or even share some personality characteristics, as astrology suggests)? What's so objectionable about that idea?
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