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My view of the US and its people is one of incredible variety.
Whites, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, liberals, conservatives, small towns, huge cities, farmers in Kansas, yuppies in Seattle, incredibly progressive cities like Madison, Wi, blue-collar workers in Pennsylvania, Mormons in Utah, sunshine states like California, Florida, ghettoes like East St Louis, communities like Kenilworth, Il.
Endless variety, and all very interesting.
America is so big and made up of so many people, you can't just go to one city or even one state and say this is America, cause it is only a small part of it. Like you said, endless variety.
BTW, I loved Edinburgh! I had a great time there and everyone that I met, was so very nice.
America does have a reputation as being a predominantly right-wing/Conservative country (San francisco excluded) but then so does England (the media establishment especially). I would actually counter the presumption of Britain being alot further to the left than the U.S by saying that though you wouldn't get a FOX News based in the UK you would also never get an economist like Paul Krugman of the New York Times in Britain's leading left leaning newspaper 'the Guardian' which though is left-wing on global issues a hemisphere away is pretty cautious and New Labour central on domestic issues like the economy overall. They would only have the guts to quote an economist like Krugman and say they agree to an extent, but would never fully back him in a leading commentary.
In general, I think America is more dominated by extremists on the left and the right than other countries. Extremists on both sides tend to dominate the debate in the political arena, with the majority of us being forced to choose between one brand of extremism vs another.
In general, I think America is more dominated by extremists on the left and the right than other countries. Extremists on both sides tend to dominate the debate in the political arena, with the majority of us being forced to choose between one brand of extremism vs another.
It seems to me, first, that you call 'left' what we would call middle-of-the-road conservative and 'right' something way outside anything but very extreme and scarcely-respectable in Europe and that, second, these alarming forces control most of your media. You'll gather that I disagree with FearandWhiskey, and hardly see the Guardian - which we've taken for many years - as in any way 'left' at all in terms of ordinary British opinion, though it does tend to be a little more moderate than the Murdoch noise machine. Our politicians have been out on their own for some time, I fear.
In reply to above post - with regards to distance and travelling time, it really did take on a whole new meaning! Don't forget we are a tiny little place compared to the USA and can only drive so far before we run out of road and hit the sea! Before I came to the US I did serously think that driving a couple of hours to get anywhere was a bit of a pain (lol) so it kind of put distance into perspective a bit more. (I have driven around Europe on numerous occasions but I suppose because in Europe it's country to country with different languages/road signs etc it all feels a bit different there!)
It was not my intention to insult any race whatsoever by the language I used so if I have unintentionally done so I do apologise. Obviously my comments on race issues were based on the odd person I met or the odd ones I observed but BY NO MEANS reflect the majority - my shock was probably due to the odd comment made to me and by listening to how some people spoke down to the hotel staff, cleaners etc, but maybe that could just be down to attitude and co-incidental of race? I don't know.
About this, sometimes if people assume a hotel janitor or a busboy was an illegal immigrant they would say things, but in terms of talking down to them, that happens a lot in wealthier areas actually. I am a minority.....most of my friends are white and many of them do tell some jokes but that is usually in private and I know they are not racist, some of them I have been friends with for my entire life. They might tell jokes but they would never mistreat or publicly insult someone that way. Ironically there are very few jokes about British people more about French and of course Poles.
It seems to me, first, that you call 'left' what we would call middle-of-the-road conservative and 'right' something way outside anything but very extreme and scarcely-respectable in Europe and that, second, these alarming forces control most of your media. You'll gather that I disagree with FearandWhiskey, and hardly see the Guardian - which we've taken for many years - as in any way 'left' at all in terms of ordinary British opinion, though it does tend to be a little more moderate than the Murdoch noise machine. Our politicians have been out on their own for some time, I fear.
I didn't say the Guardian was left-wing on domestic issues, in fact I clearly said the opposite, stating it was 'New Labour central' and like it or not, the centre ground in the UK has been consumed by the right since the the mid-90's. In fact the exact moment in time it occured can be traced to the point in time Thatcher's heir apparent Tony Blair turned to News International for support and grovelled to Rupert Murdoch for his sacred backing over prawn sandwiches and a champagne brunch. The media establishment in the UK is overwhelmingly pro-Tory and public opinion invariably is also pretty right-wing these days and reflective of the general tone of the media, (i.e aggressively pro-free and self-regulating markets, anti-public sector/trade union and vehemently accepting of the coalition's pro-cuts, anti-public sector, investment in education, manufacturing, jobs and healthcare agenda). For now at least, the British public have certainly been sold on the cuts manifesto and there are no British economists in the UK calling for Keynesian measures as defiantly as Paul Krugman of the New York Times.
And where are the radical left-wing voices in the British media? There are no Michael Moore's or overtly political comedians making parodies such the 'The Yes Men Rule The World' in the UK. Everything from music to drama to comedy has become so inoffensive, safe and scared to rock the boat that I'd give anything to see a drama that was saying anything at all, no matter how controversial or divisive. You'd have to look back to the late 80's/early 90's to see any confrontationally political comedians or dramas (Our Friends In The North possibly the last in the 90's) and even some of the voices of the left of the past have become simpering, knighthood craving establishment figures (arise Sir Ben Elton!) or gratingly hypocritical sell outs. The media and political establishment in the UK have become depressingly meek and self-concious, preferring not to stray outside the inane and comfortable and happy to co-exist in a vaccuous bubble of middle-of-the- road conformity.
In San Francisco they have a living wage and a policy of placing public underpriveleged tenants in affordable housing, the scope of which is unlike anything any mainstream political party would dare propose in the UK. UK politics overall has become very neutralised, PR strung and bland. At least in the US they have the courage to fight for what they believe in and confront issues that are swept under the carpet or glossed over in the minutiae of statistics and corporate doublespeak here.
Once David Milliband becomes Labour leader our political horizon will become notorious only for resembling a Botox Mount Rushmore of slickly oiled opportunists and careerists who know their way around a camera lens and a mountain of spin. These politicians have no core beliefs, just a penchant for marketing strategies and a mechanical and robotic ability to tow the line when they need to cradle up to positions of power. Just look at how shameless the Liberals have been in abandoning their principles in the pursuit of their little slice of the pie in parliament.
The fact that radical voices on the left and right tend to eventually become consumed by either the Republican or Democrat Party in the run up to Presidential elections is an inevitibility of the political structure of the United States rather than a representation of how radical political activistsm can be in the States. It's a misleading perception people have of the US that it is less radical politically. In comparison to how the UK stands today it certainaly is as the British public have become increaingly disenfranchised, apathetic and complacent politically. It may not hae been so in the past but it is now. Now I'm not saying America is not a more Conservative country overall, in fact it probably is in many respects. All I'm saying is that in my opinion the radical elements in the US are undoubtedly far more radical than anything currently seen here in the UK.
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 09-13-2010 at 07:46 AM..
Fear&Whiskey - I do see what you mean. Everywhere the rich control the news media which they have written for them by very prosperous journalists, none of whom ever meet any ordinary people, since they no longer do serious reporting. They have thus, in times of relative prosperity, been, like Hitler, enabled to impose their own weird version of reality on public discourse. I think though, that the very rich have been lulled into a false sense of security, which is what has encouraged the current Coalition to begin a serious class-war offensive against the majority of the population. I believe, and certainly hope, that they are in for a very rude shock indeed.
That said, the sort of nonsense these people can get away with differs from country to country, and certainly the wild men in the 'States do seem extremely wild - real baying at the moon stuff. The media can afford to get away with 'left' articles there because McCarthyism finished any real free speech in the US, I think, so in the remaining intellectual ghetto anything goes. Here there is a majority of people who know better but who are, so to speak, sozzled. Our media are so bland out of fear of sobering them up, in my own view. We'll see, anyway.
That's true, there's a bit of a lull before the storm here right now and as people were sold the illusion of
wealth rather than a real terms boost in personal wealth public apathy may be stirred as people wake from their slumber and realise the magnitude of the crisis we're currently facing.
Strangely enough, I'm not sure Americans are aware of just how tuned in the British political establishment are to American current affairs. Not a week goes by without some media commentator, think tank or politician quoting some American programme for tackling crime, sacking corrupt officials or citing some boot camp in Arizona as the blueprint for a strategy that is going to cure to all our society's ills.The same applies to a lesser extent to the British public. Walk down a street in the UK and ask 100 people who the president of the United States is and the chances are you'll get 100 correct answers. But ask anyone to name a European president of ANY country in the EU outside the UK and you'll seriously struggle to get a 50% pass rate from the same random sample.
Truth is Britain sees itself more closely aligned to America than any other country in Europe which is why UK political ideology is more closely associated to American ideas (the Thatcher-Reagan neo-liberal economic partnership and Blair-Clinton's intepretation of Australian Prime minister John Howard's third way prime examples of recent years) and policy than anywhere else in Europe. The controversy surrounding the Iraq war exemplified the divisions on political outlook between Britain and the rest of Europe with Britain deciding that unwavering support for the U.S was a more vital priority than not alienating France, Germany and other major European allies.
In fact, it wasn't just Americans who got a hard time visiting Europe during the Bush years. I myself came across some very angry anti-British sentiment in Spain when I went there, mostly surrounding the two wars and mostly from Spanish people lumping Britain and America together as some kind of loathsome political partnership whose motives were united around vested interest and oil at any price and whose political objections the same. This resentment has calmed since Blair and Bush have left office but feelings still run high towards Brits and Americans in some parts of Europe.
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 09-13-2010 at 10:36 AM..
That's true, there's a bit of a lull before the storm here right now and as people were sold the illusion of
wealth rather than a real terms boost in personal wealth public apathy may be stirred as people wake from their slumber and realise the magnitude of the crisis we're currently facing.
Strangely enough, I'm not sure Americans are aware of just how tuned in the British political establishment are to American current affairs. Not a week goes by without some media commentator, think tank or politician quoting some American programme for tackling crime, sacking corrupt officials or citing some boot camp in Arizona as the blueprint for a strategy that is going to cure to all our society's ills.The same applies to a lesser extent to the British public. Walk down a street in the UK and ask 100 people who the president of the United States is and the chances are you'll get 100 correct answers. But ask anyone to name a European president of ANY country in the EU outside the UK and you'll seriously struggle to get a 50% pass rate from the same random sample.
Truth is Britain sees itself more closely aligned to America than any other country in Europe which is why UK political ideology is more closely associated to American ideas (the Thatcher-Reagan neo-liberal economic partnership and Blair-Clinton's intepretation of Australian Prime minister John Howard's third way prime examples of recent years) and policy than anywhere else in Europe. The controversy surrounding the Iraq war exemplified the divisions on political outlook between Britain and the rest of Europe with Britain deciding that unwavering support for the U.S was a more vital priority than not alienating France, Germany and other major European allies.
In fact, it wasn't just Americans who got a hard time visiting Europe during the Bush years. I myself came across some very angry anti-British sentiment in Spain when I went there, mostly surrounding the two wars and mostly from Spanish people lumping Britain and America together as some kind of loathsome political partnership whose motives were united around vested interest and oil at any price and whose political objections the same. This resentment has calmed since Blair and Bush have left office but feelings still run high towards Brits and Americans in some parts of Europe.
Interesting as Spain itself had troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, same with Italy and Germany. How is the US health care system viewed in Britain? Many liberals in the US like to mention the NHS as a model, including professors I have had before.
And back to the original question....does anyone there actually have the small town/heartland/South as their first image of the US?
Yes Spain did have troops in Iraq but it proved a tremendously unpopular move and proved to be Jose Maria Aznar's downfall at the 2004 election in Spain. They were swiftly withrdrawn soon after the new Government was sworn into office BBC NEWS | Europe | Spain PM orders Iraq troops home. But you're right to point that out because it highlights the point I was making. Because although Spain was also actively involved and gave military backing to these conflicts Britain and America were seen as the leading protaginists. Perhaps it's a historical perception too, and one that has stuck no matter how ridiculously America's military might dwarfs that of the UK.
The healthcare debate in America has been covered extensively in the UK media. Mainly due to the fact that it became a political football that was used to either enhance the argument for universal healthcare or to attack it and some negative accusations from Republicans (as well as some very incendiary political advertising) caused an outcry from the British public who united behind the NHS for the most part. Not many things unite political opinion but the NHS, like Winston Churchill's accomplishments in initially recognising and defiantly fighting and rallying the world against the threat of Nazi Germany during the second World War, are two of the clearest examples of historic British political achievements of the 20th Century that transcend partisan leanings and generally unite opposing political boundaries here. On principle at least.
Ironically, one of the most bizarre interviews I've seen on the BBC was on Newsnight of Michael Moore making the case for the NHS on Newsnight against a pro-U.S model presenter (not Paxman that night) that was vehemently trying to shatter his illusions about the NHS whilst proclaiming the U.S model to be vastly superior, citing statistics that found that U.S hospitals outperform the UK in terms of high-tech equipment and advances in technology. Michael Moore's response was that excluding millions from the healthcare system inevitably tends to leave more resources available for elaborate machinery but claimed that was worthless window dressing when you conside the fact that many people are left without any tangible healthcare cover or access whatsoever. And even amongst Conservatives here, only those on the right of the party would dare talk of replicating the U.S model here. Secretly many would love to but brazenly saying so iopenly is not a viable political move. Even amongst the majority of the UK population the NHS is generally revered and seen as a succesful landmark in UK history. The only question that divides political opinion at present is how the NHS moves forward and is funded.
As for the small town/heartland/South alot of the imagery surrounding such locations is generally sketchy,vague and kind of stereotypical to most Brits. The derisive caricature of the small town 'hick' or 'slack jawed yokel 'is a figure Britain is familiar with for instance, but not many could pinpoint where exactly in heartland America such a character would reside. But most would probably believe it to be the South. In fact, to many in the UK, heartland America is synonymous with southern culture. Be that through imagery of steakhouses, pool halls, fire and brimstone preachers, cattle ranches or a large pot bellied sheriff chewing tabacco whilst leaning on a rocking chair on a porch and proceeding to spit into a tin bucket in the corner.
The only insight I've personally had into heartland America has been through cultural references in film, literature and music. 'Grapes Of Wrath', by Jeff Steinbeck being one shining example. I can recall lyrics in my head from country songs about being "South of Cincinnati" or "South Of the Mason-Dixie Line" but have little knowledge as to their significance or relevance. I see you have 'the better side of the Mason-Dixie Line' written next to your location too but this isn't a phrase that most in the UK would relate to or comprehend. Stereotypical and limited then, (in a nutshell) would be the limit to how much life in heartland America is understood here even if there are many cultural references from heartland America that have over the years made an impact through literature, film and music etc....
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 09-13-2010 at 03:12 PM..
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