English attitudes toward social class vs. America (middle-class, fit in)

[Johnbiggs]

As I've taken an interest in both Sociology and English culture, I'd like to hear some of your opinions on the differences between English and American attitudes towards social class. Feel free to contribute to the discussion with any insight you deem helpful, and I have a few questions as starters:

1. Do you believe the English definition of "working class" is broader than the American one?

2. Which class do you believe most English people view themselves as belonging to: working or middle?

3. Do you believe social mobility is more readily attainable in England or the US?

4. Do you believe many of the issues pertaining to class tensions in England are analogous to many of those stemming from racial/ethnic tension in the US?

[Your.Decision]

Social mobility is far easier to obtain in the UK, where getting an education is far cheaper and where upward mobility is easier to achieve. The UK doesn't really have ghettos in the American sense, nor does it have as much of the whole black/white thing going on. If you're born working class, you have a far better chance of making it if you have the natural ability to do so (cheaper tuition, free healthcare).

The US tends to stigmatize the poor, while the UK is far more tolerant and supportive of those who are disadvantaged. The working poor especially are not as frowned upon.

Just my opinion.

[Hengist]

1. The American one in my experience is more traditonal blue collar.

2. There is a strange inverted snobbery in the UK where middle class professionals call themselves working class.

3. Probably about the same. Welfare breeds more welfare.

4. No. We have racial tension, but stronger hate laws to suppress its expression.

Just one example of how class obsession is perpetuated. When I studied English Literature at university it was impossible to write an essay on a novel without being marked down if you didn't do so in relation to a Marxist theory of class.

If you want to have fun with class, go to upmystreet and enter a postcode.
For example, two contrasting but neighbouring areas in Chelsea:
Neighbourhood Statistics for SW10 0EG | UpMyStreet (http://www.upmystreet.com/local/neighbours-in-sw10-0eg.html - broken link)
Neighbourhood Statistics for SW10 0JP | UpMyStreet (http://www.upmystreet.com/local/neighbours-in-sw10-0jp.html - broken link)

[Amelorn]

1. The definition is not broader, but is clearer.
~Americans are in great denial as to who is what class. $250k per year income earners and $20k alike will often call themselves middle class, however, anyone should realize the farcical nature of putting those two incomes in the same social class.

2. We have that as well. Upper-middle class prefer to associate with the middle class than with the upper class or as a class unto themselves.

3. Statistically, we are both as rigid, though for different reasons. While the barriers of education, and subsequently wealth attainment, are lower due to heavily subsidized university education, class in the UK is also a matter of mannerism and upbringing. A thick Yorkshire accent will always be lower class even if you drop the hapless lad in Eton. The US has a far more subtle and complex system of accent, diction, and mannerisms....many of which are rapidly becoming obsolete with homogenization courtesy of television and pop culture.

4. Class tension exists in the US independent of race. Race can exacerbate the tension and mask the overtones of class.

You've touched upon my pet interest, and I've been fortunate enough to intimately observe both the US and UK system in person.

[Iolo]

I am seldom in England. I do think you'd get a better picture of attitudes if you included the whole UK.

[Fear&Whiskey]

In the UK self-made billionaires who started out as meat porters and barrow boys tend to be forever working-class no matter how much or little they earn. In the UK the term middle-class tends to have a higher pay and employment title threshold (professionals, Doctors, lawyers=middle-class) than in the U.S where more blue collar workers and modest suburban dwellers a few thousand dollars up from lower a income bracket take pride in their middle-class status. In the UK attitude also plays a part too. Do you eat organic food? Read the Times? Shop at Waitrose etc.... In fact I know many teachers on lower incomes than succesful black cab drivers and builders who fit the middle-class stereotype but live very modest lives. The reverse is also true of Essex wide boys and succesful entrepreneurs, same for those living in areas Kent and Hertfordshire who may live in very attarctive mansions and may take home a whopping salary but you probably wouldn't guess to look at them and attitude is more of a class componenet than salary for many people in the UK.

The UK isn't that far removed from the U.S as it may seem however. The media establishment here is predominantly right-wing and encourages a very bitter and vitriolic attitude towards benefit claimants and State investment in public services like education. And I've seen many workers work themselves into an early grave such is the stigma surrounding benefits and to be seen to be 'scrounging from the State', especially for proud, hard working people who've earnt that right and paid their taxes.

The development of an 'underclass in the UK' can be linked back to the demise of manufacturing and the selling off of British assets to the Private Sector during the Thatcher years. In this respect, Britain followed America's free market road to redemption and now we're reaping the devestating consequences. Unbalanced inflation, unsustainable growth and a fire sale on industry has left us pretty skeltal economic growth wise. Other countries in Europe have stronger trade Unions and a more generous benefit system than we do and still manage to hold together economic equilibrium. Germany, for one, is booming ahead of everyone else in Europe now but State investment and public investment is a very high priority there.

We don't have quite such such fierce contrasts in the UK but the days where hard work alone could buy a house and support a family are long gone, especially in London. You'll need to earning more than £55,000 pounds a year to raise a family in London now and that's (bare minimum) stretching household budgets to the limit. Social mobility died during the inflated false economy boom of the New Labour years and we now have a similar society to America where you either need an extremely lucky break in life, to be born into a wealthy family or to live in the catchment area where the schools have a good reputation. Otherwise, in Britain in 2010 it is extremely unlikely you will escape the social group in which you are born and statistics show social mobility has crumbled since the 70's. I'll probably get alot of stick for posting a Guardian link from more right-wing commentators here but I thought the statement the article makes about inequality and comparisons between Britain in 2010 and the Victorian era might be an interesting contribution to this debate. Why Britain's battle to bring down social inequality has failed | Society | The Guardian

[Iolo]

Yes - the Economist, when I took it, was frequently saying that social mobility had more or less totally ceased in the US and was much reduced in the UK. The interesting thing in the UK is that the upper class has completely disappeared itself - people like Cameron claim to be 'middle class'. It is a very phoney picture in both countries, but Americans tend to be more stubborn believers in 'getting on' because they moved from elsewhere and are not reminded of how little social distance their travels have involved.

[Johnbiggs]

Good discussion so far; some of your posts tend to confirm what I'd begun to realize. I'd like to pose a scenario to you, followed by a question:

Say there's a boy, let's call him John. John grows up in one of the rougher areas of London, the child of Jamaican immigrants, neither of whom finished high school. John's father works with his hands, and his family leads a modest existence.

In spite of his parents lack of education, John is very smart and excels in school. Seeing this, a charitable organization arranges for John to attend Eton college. After this, John attends Cambridge, before beginning a career as a lawyer (but not with a prestigious firm).

As an adult, John is well-traveled and enjoys such intellectual pursuits as chess, but is just as at home in a pub watching football. He dresses sensibly, but avoids stereotypically "posh" brands. He is well spoken; his accent screams neither "posh" nor "well 'ard cockney bloke", and in casual conversation, he does sometimes pepper his speech with working-class colloquialisms.

My question is this: How likely is John to view himself, in his adult life, as "working class?" How likely are others to view him as such?

[Hengist]

I'm guessing John would speak with a Jamaican patois with friends, some kind of estuary at home, and proper to fit in at Cambridge. I have come across a number of people who dropped accents at Oxbridge, while others cling onto them as a badge of honour. But it's not that simple. Author Nick Hornby came from a middle class background, and like many boys started to drop aitches at grammar school, while his sister now speaks like a Duchess to the extent people doubt they are siblings. Gender has always had a part to play; Thomas Hardy has Tess speak Wessex dialect at home, but standard English at school.

To answer your question, John would probably feel very proud of what he had achieved, and never miss a chance to say so. I am always struck by the number of black people who have made it and talk about how their success saved them from a life of crime, as if that is the natural expectataion for anyone who grew up on a council estate. I have experienced a fall from upper middle class to welfare as a child, and although people talk about a lack of social mobility I believe anyone who is willing to work and study can quite easily move around the various classes.

[Johnbiggs]

Forgive me if I seem pushy, as I do appreciate your post, but if I may be a stickler: from an English viewpoint, might he still consider himself "working class"?