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Old 02-18-2011, 11:17 AM
 
3,059 posts, read 8,267,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelorn View Post
Calm down, calm down. No, I do not expect the subsidy of the British people. However, if we really want to be tit for tat.... nah....I won't go there.

I do, however, expect to pay what the Scottish government + student pay. I poked around, spoke to some professors and university finance officers, etc. My tuition last year was £11,750. The Scottish go for free, and the rest of the UK pay £1,700. The government is not paying nearly 12 grand for the Scots or 10 for the English. I would be interested in seeing what the rates would be if the government stopped all subsidies for all students throughout the UK.

Americans and other non-EU are used as cash cows.

Now, I am still getting a better deal than I would have from Fordham.

Now, I find a bit of generational warfare. The MPs who forced this change through were educated for "free." As long as their pensions are covered.
I am calm. In fact I am perfectly serene. I am also a UK tax payer who has no interest in subsidising the education (or healthcare) of people from other countries who do not pay tax here.

"The government is not paying nearly 12 grand for the Scots or 10 for the English." Actually, that IS about what it costs per student per year. (Hell the heating costs alone for those lovely uninsulated building is astronomical!)

You are from New York right? Go check out some of the university websites in the USA. Tuition at most universities in the USA is not only double for international students, it is double for people from out-of-state. And they are US tax payers. So yes, the home growns here get it cheaper - and no, it's no fun if you are that international or out-of-state student, but at the end of the day, it is fair.
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Old 02-19-2011, 01:23 PM
 
Location: SW France
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I strongly suspect that £9000 does not cover tuition fees at somewhere like Imperial, which is one of the best of its type. I know that £9000 at Oxbridge covers around half the tuition fees.
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Old 02-22-2011, 02:18 AM
 
Location: Striving for Avalon
1,431 posts, read 2,475,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshineleith View Post
I am calm. In fact I am perfectly serene. I am also a UK tax payer who has no interest in subsidising the education (or healthcare) of people from other countries who do not pay tax here.

"The government is not paying nearly 12 grand for the Scots or 10 for the English." Actually, that IS about what it costs per student per year. (Hell the heating costs alone for those lovely uninsulated building is astronomical!)

You are from New York right? Go check out some of the university websites in the USA. Tuition at most universities in the USA is not only double for international students, it is double for people from out-of-state. And they are US tax payers. So yes, the home growns here get it cheaper - and no, it's no fun if you are that international or out-of-state student, but at the end of the day, it is fair.
Difference: few pay "sticker price" in America for university unless they are mediocre (no merit scholarships) or well-off (don't need it). The UK has few scholarships in comparison.

As for what the government actually pays per student, the Qaestor disagrees with you, as does the head of the German department. As a first and second year arts student, we have 12 contact hours per week. In third, this number drops to 4 per week. In fourth, if the student undertakes a dissertation, that number will drop to 2 per week, except for the odd meeting with their supervisor. Scientists cost a fortune to educate, given their 20-30 contact hours per week and lab equipment.

As for taxation, I pay over $100 per flight in Air Duty to HM Treasury (that's £400 each year for the NY-LHR flight and a about £100 per domestic flight LHR-EDI). Further, I've paid 17% average in VAT on every burger, sweater, beer, scarf, and pair of boxers I have purchased. Then there are the fuel duties paid to the taxi I take to and fro the airport. I have yet to use a doctor, get free condoms (I prefer to buy my own, thank you very much), whine to a counsellor during exam time, etc etc. If I did require a doctor, I'd pay £25 for an appointment with the local private doctor.
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Old 02-23-2011, 09:37 PM
 
Location: NJ
2,210 posts, read 7,017,252 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelorn View Post
Difference: few pay "sticker price" in America for university unless they are mediocre (no merit scholarships) or well-off (don't need it). The UK has few scholarships in comparison.

As for what the government actually pays per student, the Qaestor disagrees with you, as does the head of the German department. As a first and second year arts student, we have 12 contact hours per week. In third, this number drops to 4 per week. In fourth, if the student undertakes a dissertation, that number will drop to 2 per week, except for the odd meeting with their supervisor. Scientists cost a fortune to educate, given their 20-30 contact hours per week and lab equipment.

As for taxation, I pay over $100 per flight in Air Duty to HM Treasury (that's £400 each year for the NY-LHR flight and a about £100 per domestic flight LHR-EDI). Further, I've paid 17% average in VAT on every burger, sweater, beer, scarf, and pair of boxers I have purchased. Then there are the fuel duties paid to the taxi I take to and fro the airport. I have yet to use a doctor, get free condoms (I prefer to buy my own, thank you very much), whine to a counsellor during exam time, etc etc. If I did require a doctor, I'd pay £25 for an appointment with the local private doctor.
Wow, so all those American students complaining about drowning under hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans are faking it? They really got their degrees for pennies on the dollar, right? So why didn't you?

And I should tell my parents that they didn't need to pay all those income taxes for 40 something years to pay for my "free" education, all they had to do was buy some boxer shorts.

Could you get any more "Gen Y, entitlement generation"? I'm assuming your American elementary education did at least equip you with the ability to actually read the prospectus before you signed up to go to school in a foreign country. Nobody forced you on the plane.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:30 PM
 
109 posts, read 203,984 times
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My partner paid about $80,000 for her bachelors degree from a good public state university. The rates that schools post are often bare minimum and don't include anything additional courses, books, labs, living etc. She would like to go to law school but it will cost about $150,000 so she has decided to wait.

As for everyone being on scholarship, that is just nuts. The majority of people in the US have to take out loans unless their parents are wealthy, which is a minority of the population. Also, people in the US pay close (not as much but close) to what people pay in taxes in the UK, but have to pay for health-care and everything else.

Yes, many students study abroad because they want to learn in another country. They can do so more cheaply if they do it through their own university. Most Americans doing an entire degree would be wealthy or really smart and on a special scholarship.

Last edited by FiddleDeeD; 03-01-2011 at 03:40 PM..
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Old 03-06-2011, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
7,041 posts, read 14,985,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FiddleDeeD View Post
My partner paid about $80,000 for her bachelors degree from a good public state university. The rates that schools post are often bare minimum and don't include anything additional courses, books, labs, living etc. She would like to go to law school but it will cost about $150,000 so she has decided to wait.

As for everyone being on scholarship, that is just nuts. The majority of people in the US have to take out loans unless their parents are wealthy, which is a minority of the population. Also, people in the US pay close (not as much but close) to what people pay in taxes in the UK, but have to pay for health-care and everything else.

Yes, many students study abroad because they want to learn in another country. They can do so more cheaply if they do it through their own university. Most Americans doing an entire degree would be wealthy or really smart and on a special scholarship.
I agree with much of this. My son chose to go to school in England (we are American) because, at the time, there were no universities in America offering the degree program that he was wanting to pursue. He was attending a state school, living at home and his fees for school in England were LESS than what he was paying here. He happened to choose the second-best International Relations school in the world, (the one in Wales that I cannot spell is #1 ). The English system of paying increasingly more each year for each year's more difficult studies is great and the fact that there are no books to buy (they are kept at the library) is something that I wish American universities would adopt. My son did his entire degree program in Britain, we are neither wealthy nor was he on any kind of special scholarship. He had student loans, which is not ideal, but, he would've had them anyway and this way, they were less than what they would have been if he graduated from an American university.

To the American that is whining about the cost...get over yourself. If you have a student loan though the College Foundation, yes, my son started that program because previously there were no offerings for students who wanted to travel abroad. No, there may not be many scholarships available, but, do your research. There may well be something available for your field of study. However, I can guarantee that whatever you are paying in Britain is less than 1/2 of what you would pay for a comparable degree in the states. Note that I said "comparable". Because to compare apples to apples, you have to take into consideration the caliber of studies that you are having, the professors that you have that may be the cream of the crop from anywhere in Europe, and the sizes of your classes and the opportunity to have tutoring for no additional fees. Seriously. Take your education seriously and see what an opportunity that you have there.

And, yes, going to school is very expensive in America. I am currently in school and just one book will cost me over $200.00. It is very difficult to get scholarships despite a great grade point average and being a mature student.
Yet, most companies require a degree for the most menial jobs and you will not be promoted unless you have another degree.....it is a vicious circle.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Durham UK
2,028 posts, read 5,417,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian6479 View Post
My wife paid $12,000 per year for in state tuition. Whilst this is about £8,000, you have to look at it against the average wage. I think the UK system will become as expensive as in state tuition in the US (out of state can cost anything up to $35,000 per year - or more for ivy league), but that doesn't stop Americans going to university.

What is important to understand is that UK university fees are NOT increasing - the conservative policy is to shift the cost from the taxpayer (who subsidize the fees) to the student. This is one of the few conservative policies that I actually support. Its a good idea, not only for British universities to improve standards and remain globally competitive, but also to stop churning out students from terrible and irrelevant British 'universities'.
Which country do you see as having the lowest average wage?
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Durham UK
2,028 posts, read 5,417,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagocubs View Post
I agree with much of this. My son chose to go to school in England (we are American) because, at the time, there were no universities in America offering the degree program that he was wanting to pursue. He was attending a state school, living at home and his fees for school in England were LESS than what he was paying here. He happened to choose the second-best International Relations school in the world, (the one in Wales that I cannot spell is #1 ). The English system of paying increasingly more each year for each year's more difficult studies is great and the fact that there are no books to buy (they are kept at the library) is something that I wish American universities would adopt. My son did his entire degree program in Britain, we are neither wealthy nor was he on any kind of special scholarship. He had student loans, which is not ideal, but, he would've had them anyway and this way, they were less than what they would have been if he graduated from an American university.

To the American that is whining about the cost...get over yourself. If you have a student loan though the College Foundation, yes, my son started that program because previously there were no offerings for students who wanted to travel abroad. No, there may not be many scholarships available, but, do your research. There may well be something available for your field of study. However, I can guarantee that whatever you are paying in Britain is less than 1/2 of what you would pay for a comparable degree in the states. Note that I said "comparable". Because to compare apples to apples, you have to take into consideration the caliber of studies that you are having, the professors that you have that may be the cream of the crop from anywhere in Europe, and the sizes of your classes and the opportunity to have tutoring for no additional fees. Seriously. Take your education seriously and see what an opportunity that you have there.

And, yes, going to school is very expensive in America. I am currently in school and just one book will cost me over $200.00. It is very difficult to get scholarships despite a great grade point average and being a mature student.
Yet, most companies require a degree for the most menial jobs and you will not be promoted unless you have another degree.....it is a vicious circle.
But that may be an Associates degree which is a 2 yr degree and includes general education componenets such as English, Math, composition and Humanities.

A US Associates degree is roughly equivalent to a Higher National diploma awarded by the Business and Technology education council.

These General education components are also part of Bachelors degrees in the US.

In nursing in the UK, for example, it's not possible to train to be a nurse in 2 years and UK degrees don't include a general education core curriculum, so the full 3 years is dedicated to the subject of the degree.

It's also possible for High School students in the US to attend a Community college (and I believe in many states there is no cost for this) and gain college credits, and/or complete college level courses within high school.
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Striving for Avalon
1,431 posts, read 2,475,927 times
Reputation: 3451
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagocubs View Post
I agree with much of this. My son chose to go to school in England (we are American) because, at the time, there were no universities in America offering the degree program that he was wanting to pursue. He was attending a state school, living at home and his fees for school in England were LESS than what he was paying here. He happened to choose the second-best International Relations school in the world, (the one in Wales that I cannot spell is #1 ). The English system of paying increasingly more each year for each year's more difficult studies is great and the fact that there are no books to buy (they are kept at the library) is something that I wish American universities would adopt. My son did his entire degree program in Britain, we are neither wealthy nor was he on any kind of special scholarship. He had student loans, which is not ideal, but, he would've had them anyway and this way, they were less than what they would have been if he graduated from an American university.

To the American that is whining about the cost...get over yourself. If you have a student loan though the College Foundation, yes, my son started that program because previously there were no offerings for students who wanted to travel abroad. No, there may not be many scholarships available, but, do your research. There may well be something available for your field of study. However, I can guarantee that whatever you are paying in Britain is less than 1/2 of what you would pay for a comparable degree in the states. Note that I said "comparable". Because to compare apples to apples, you have to take into consideration the caliber of studies that you are having, the professors that you have that may be the cream of the crop from anywhere in Europe, and the sizes of your classes and the opportunity to have tutoring for no additional fees. Seriously. Take your education seriously and see what an opportunity that you have there.

And, yes, going to school is very expensive in America. I am currently in school and just one book will cost me over $200.00. It is very difficult to get scholarships despite a great grade point average and being a mature student.
Yet, most companies require a degree for the most menial jobs and you will not be promoted unless you have another degree.....it is a vicious circle.
It's Aberystwyth. I was thinking of a masters there, actually. As it turns out, we (your son and I) both came to the UK for the same degree, which is a rarity in the US. (Poli-Sci has nothing on it, IMO)

I love how a simmering, low-priority complaint over cost disparity depending on your passport turned into "entitled generation Y" rant and accusations that I am taking my education seriously. This was, of course, after debunking the accusation that I am a free-loading foreign student.

In the US, I was offered $10,000 from Fordham, $18,000 from Adelphi, and a full ride at St Johns, among others. However, I'd rather pay for a top 5 UK than pay $25,000 to commute into the Bronx or get a run of the mill lib arts degree of questionable value.

But, I wanted to keep this as isolated to tuition fee disparity between nationalities. But I suppose in lieu of that, character assassination is easier.

Student loans should not be treated in the same class as aid in the form of grants and scholarships. Coming from a family of accountants, businessmen, and brokers on my mother's side and foolish debtors on my father's, we have something of an aversion to taking out a loan...especially against the possible. But this is another discussion.
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Old 03-07-2011, 02:50 AM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
4,664 posts, read 8,232,079 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whatsthenews View Post
Which country do you see as having the lowest average wage?


Given the exchange rate they are probably quite similar.. I'd imagine the US to be slightly higher. The cost of living in most parts of the US is lower though so the disposable wealth is greater in the US (I admit I haven't actually researcged that but this was certainly the case for me when I living in Wisconsin earning the same in $ as in £ here).
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