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Old 06-09-2011, 01:50 PM
 
Location: t' grim north
509 posts, read 942,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
I had flatmates from Yorkshire who assured me that England was part of Yorkshire.

Given that England has been part of Scotland since the accession of James VI, either they were wrong or Scotland is also part of Yorkshire
The current theory is that the entire Universe started in Yorkshire and whilst there is a lot of evidence to corroborate this theory, we are still waiting for Nora in Huddersfield to publish her thesis.

And of course Scotland is part of Yorkshire - where do you think you got your reputation for being mean from and your preference for haddock over cod?
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Old 06-09-2011, 01:53 PM
 
10,532 posts, read 7,241,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkie Bar View Post
The current theory is that the entire Universe started in Yorkshire and whilst there is a lot of evidence to corroborate this theory, we are still waiting for Nora in Huddersfield to publish her thesis.

And of course Scotland is part of Yorkshire - where do you think you got your reputation for being mean from and your preference for haddock over cod?
Scots are not mean. They are just careful However, you might be right about the haddock.
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Old 06-09-2011, 04:29 PM
 
Location: The cupboard under the sink
3,574 posts, read 3,860,908 times
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Yes, until Scotland has the means put in place to support itself, we require to remain in the union.

We receive £0.00000000000000000000000 directly from taxes, it all goes to Westminster.
Therefore, until we receive income directly from taxation, and other sources, it is impossible for Scotland to support itself.

It's not necessarily to the detriment of everyone else, because in a union, we all support each other.

You're really not getting this concept, are you ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkie Bar View Post
So it is only about money then? Which says to me if it is financially beneficial for Scotland to remain within the UK, it is probably to the financial detriment of everybody else in the UK. So why shouldn't we get a vote on what benefits us?
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Old 06-09-2011, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Arizona
2,108 posts, read 980,555 times
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Im from the US but based on the history of Scotland, I think the Scottish should be free to do whatever they want.
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:08 PM
 
Location: t' grim north
509 posts, read 942,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman View Post
Yes, until Scotland has the means put in place to support itself, we require to remain in the union.

We receive £0.00000000000000000000000 directly from taxes, it all goes to Westminster.
Therefore, until we receive income directly from taxation, and other sources, it is impossible for Scotland to support itself.

It's not necessarily to the detriment of everyone else, because in a union, we all support each other.

You're really not getting this concept, are you ?
Oh I get it and without the need of emoticons to make others look stupid. As you are obviously a gifted economist perhaps you could tell us what the figures actually are rather than elude to them. And before you make the common mistake, over 40% of North Sea oil and gas would lie in English territorial waters unless independence managed to change the boarder between England and Scotland too.

The problem with this thread is that it is long on the same old, worn out clichés that AS has trotted out a million times but there are no facts from those who espouse it.
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Old 06-09-2011, 11:13 PM
 
Location: t' grim north
509 posts, read 942,668 times
Reputation: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by CinSonic View Post
Im from the US but based on the history of Scotland, I think the Scottish should be free to do whatever they want.
Of course you do. Just like you believe that the eleven Southern states should have been allowed to secede from the Union.
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Old 06-10-2011, 02:55 AM
 
Location: The cupboard under the sink
3,574 posts, read 3,860,908 times
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At perilous risk of overusing

I never said I knew anything about economics, or how Scotland as a country could make independence work, go back and read my posts, and you'll find that I said I awaited the SNP to produce those figures to show me that it was viable.

I also expressed concern that they didn't appear to have any kind of figures to back up the claims they have made that Scotland could be better off out of the union.

I also stated that the SNP would have to prove their plans to the Scottish people before they could ever hope to gain enough support to get a "yes" vote at a referendum, and that we feel they are chasing a dream, and fudging to much.

You, however, appear to have misunderstood this, and gone off on a tangent, which seems to imply that Scotland is full of scroungers, and is a drain on the English economy.

Well worthy of my friend.

(Indeed, you even close your post by making exactly the same point that I've been making from the start)

It should be noted that we are not necessarily sceptical about leaving the union purely for financial reasons.
Since at the moment, the SNP or Labour would be most likely to be a government of an independent Scotland, I think many people just don't trust them with outright power.
Look at what has happened with the UK in general, and how the Lib Dems have fallen from grace for appearing to be lapdogs to the Tories, and for being a little power mad now they have it.

The issue runs a lot deeper than purely finances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkie Bar View Post
Oh I get it and without the need of emoticons to make others look stupid. As you are obviously a gifted economist perhaps you could tell us what the figures actually are rather than elude to them. And before you make the common mistake, over 40% of North Sea oil and gas would lie in English territorial waters unless independence managed to change the boarder between England and Scotland too.

The problem with this thread is that it is long on the same old, worn out clichés that AS has trotted out a million times but there are no facts from those who espouse it.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:13 AM
 
Location: t' grim north
509 posts, read 942,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobman View Post
At perilous risk of overusing

I never said I knew anything about economics, or how Scotland as a country could make independence work, go back and read my posts, and you'll find that I said I awaited the SNP to produce those figures to show me that it was viable.

I also expressed concern that they didn't appear to have any kind of figures to back up the claims they have made that Scotland could be better off out of the union.

I also stated that the SNP would have to prove their plans to the Scottish people before they could ever hope to gain enough support to get a "yes" vote at a referendum, and that we feel they are chasing a dream, and fudging to much.

You, however, appear to have misunderstood this, and gone off on a tangent, which seems to imply that Scotland is full of scroungers, and is a drain on the English economy.

Well worthy of my friend.

(Indeed, you even close your post by making exactly the same point that I've been making from the start)

It should be noted that we are not necessarily sceptical about leaving the union purely for financial reasons.
Since at the moment, the SNP or Labour would be most likely to be a government of an independent Scotland, I think many people just don't trust them with outright power.
Look at what has happened with the UK in general, and how the Lib Dems have fallen from grace for appearing to be lapdogs to the Tories, and for being a little power mad now they have it.

The issue runs a lot deeper than purely finances.
Sorry Bob but from the hysterical tone of your post I don't really think you do consider me to be your friend. And I have read your posts and it is, as you acknowledged, purely about money.

You have stated that the Scots contribute as much in taxation as they get given to spend. That is the thrust of your argument with me - that Scotland contributes as much as it takes out. But then your earlier post is all about the SNP providing the necessary figures to show independence is financially viable.

So which is it - you pay your fair share now or Scotland receives more than it contributes? If it is the former then the SNP surely have no need to provide you with sums to satisfy you about what you already know. If you generate all the income you need now, then independence must mean you will be at least as well off so go for it.

Now, putting money aside do we have any constitutional experts here who can confirm if one part of the UK can legally vote to leave the rest without the agreement of the other parts of the UK? I seem to remember a previous hot thread where somebody presented an argument that there is only one country - the UK - and that England, Scotland, Wales & NI did not legally exist as individual countries. If that is the case then only a vote at Westminster could allow Scottish independence.

Oh, and you really don't need to use emoticons to try and belittle people you disagree with - you seem quite capable enough of holding a reasoned debate and they tend to be the refuge of people who are of limited intellect.
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Old 06-10-2011, 10:24 AM
 
10,532 posts, read 7,241,616 times
Reputation: 6622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkie Bar View Post
Sorry Bob but from the hysterical tone of your post I don't really think you do consider me to be your friend. And I have read your posts and it is, as you acknowledged, purely about money.

You have stated that the Scots contribute as much in taxation as they get given to spend. That is the thrust of your argument with me - that Scotland contributes as much as it takes out. But then your earlier post is all about the SNP providing the necessary figures to show independence is financially viable.

So which is it - you pay your fair share now or Scotland receives more than it contributes? If it is the former then the SNP surely have no need to provide you with sums to satisfy you about what you already know. If you generate all the income you need now, then independence must mean you will be at least as well off so go for it.

Now, putting money aside do we have any constitutional experts here who can confirm if one part of the UK can legally vote to leave the rest without the agreement of the other parts of the UK? I seem to remember a previous hot thread where somebody presented an argument that there is only one country - the UK - and that England, Scotland, Wales & NI did not legally exist as individual countries. If that is the case then only a vote at Westminster could allow Scottish independence.

Oh, and you really don't need to use emoticons to try and belittle people you disagree with - you seem quite capable enough of holding a reasoned debate and they tend to be the refuge of people who are of limited intellect.
My understanding is that the Union came about as an international treaty between England and Scotland. Wales was already a Principality of the English Crown. I am not sure of the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

In England, sovereignty is vested in parliament. However, in Scotland, sovereignty is vested in the Scottish people (Claim of Right). Therefore, technically, it is sufficient for an established majority of the Scottish people to vote in favour of abrogating the treaty.

As I say, this is my understanding. However, it is clearly a matter for debate by constitutional experts one of which, I am not.
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Old 06-10-2011, 11:13 AM
 
Location: t' grim north
509 posts, read 942,668 times
Reputation: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
My understanding is that the Union came about as an international treaty between England and Scotland. Wales was already a Principality of the English Crown. I am not sure of the constitutional status of Northern Ireland.

In England, sovereignty is vested in parliament. However, in Scotland, sovereignty is vested in the Scottish people (Claim of Right). Therefore, technically, it is sufficient for an established majority of the Scottish people to vote in favour of abrogating the treaty.

As I say, this is my understanding. However, it is clearly a matter for debate by constitutional experts one of which, I am not.
Thanks Jaggy, that is interesting to know (I knew about Wales but didn't want to upset the Welsh as well as (most) of the Scots!).
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