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Are you sure that it's equally easy for an immigrant to be considered "British" as "American" or "Canadian?"
I have different impression about it.
There are differences between the countries and it is not perfect as I said, but by and large I still think these are likely some of the easiest places for immigrants to take on a new identity and get accepted as real, equal members of society in their new home countries.
There are differences between the countries and it is not perfect as I said, but by and large I still think these are likely some of the easiest places for immigrants to take on a new identity and get accepted as real, equal members of society in their new home countries.
It's not about perfection, but as I've said I see the difference in this respect between Great Britain and the US/ Canada for example.
Location: The western periphery of Terra Australis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure
Are you sure that it's equally easy for an immigrant to be considered "British" as "American" or "Canadian?"
I have different impression about it.
Britain has become an immigrant nation, but unlike the US, Canada, Australia or Brazil, it wasn't founded as an immigrant nation. That's why, even though someone of Pakistani heritage might be considered British, there will always be a distinction between him and an 'ethnic Briton.'
3. A Protestant work ethic, a sort of distaste for extravagance (e.g. Romance nations).
I don't think this is the case at all in many of the countries mentioned-but then maybe it depends on how you see extravagance.
To me a home of more than around 2,500 sq ft is extravagance, as is owning gas guzzling vehicles and having little respect for the environment.
The UK, USA and Canada detest racism, but in southern Europe racism is more overt.
I don't think you can make this generalised statement.Some do and some are racist, although they will disguise it as something else!
One behavioral trait I noticed while living in Germany was that the English/british/UKish waited in and enforced lines.
In Germany it was more like a tussle to the front. guess edeka was an exception. but department type stores etc
just the way i saw it.
Germany is nothing compared to Portugal There is a tendency towards chaos and flock formation here, maybe that's why you need to draw a number most of the time. The number system makes lines pretty obsolete.
And in the supermarket people do wait in line, I haven't been anywhere yet where that was not the case. Usually when someone tries to cheat, the others just won't accept it, thus hardly anyone ever tries.
Having lived in Britain, I just didn't find that waiting in line discipline the Brits are famous for. It was like anywhere else.
Britain has become an immigrant nation, but unlike the US, Canada, Australia or Brazil, it wasn't founded as an immigrant nation. That's why, even though someone of Pakistani heritage might be considered British, there will always be a distinction between him and an 'ethnic Briton.'
I have noticed such an attitude with Americans as well, though. White Americans often consider themselves the real Americans. You can see it in all those threads on culture and immigration where people want to defend white culture, whatever that is supposed to be.
3. A Protestant work ethic, a sort of distaste for extravagance (e.g. Romance nations).
I don't think this is the case at all in many of the countries mentioned-but then maybe it depends on how you see extravagance.
To me a home of more than around 2,500 sq ft is extravagance, as is owning gas guzzling vehicles and having little respect for the environment.
The UK, USA and Canada detest racism, but in southern Europe racism is more overt.
I don't think you can make this generalised statement.Some do and some are racist, although they will disguise it as something else!
I think "extravagance" is more of a code-word for "ostentation". Whether you consider it "extravagant" or not, a person can own a Suburban or Yukon without the intent to show it off.
I am an immigrant to the UK (I came here when I was 9ish) - I lived in London for 15 years and the rest has been spent in other southern cities. There is first of a all a distinct North-South divide in the UK as well as the very OBVIOUS class divisions. Foreigners who come to the UK are surprised to find out how divided the UK is along class lines.
The Protestant work ethic thing is a myth here in the UK. It may have been true 200 years ago, but no longer. I used to be a City of London lawyer (before my son was born) and I can honestly say that the British have an incredibly lazy attitude to work. My secretary once went off on a 2 hour lunch break (without telling me !) although I had catagorically told her that I had an urgent document to send off.
I have also worked in various industrial and business sectors in the UK and I honestly don't think any one can say (with any integrity) that the British work HARD. In fact, local businesses are saying that they would rather employ the very hard-working East European immigrants (recent immigrants to the UK have been mainly from Poland) as the British will not do "menial" jobs for the min. wage, but immigrants WILL !
This despite the fact that UK employers complain that 16 year old English school leavers have incredibly poor numeracy and English language skills and are simply not qualified to do anything other than the lowest paying jobs (i.e. working in restaurants, shops, etc.) Many would rather stay unemployed though than go and get a job, so the immigrants come in and do it for them.
I have been teaching at a local college as a part-time lecturer and some of us who were new to teaching could not believe the shocking level of literacy among a large population of 16 year olds. Around half the 16 year olds in the UK leave without any GCSE's (these are exams that 16 year olds are supposed to pass before they leave school including English and Maths) and the Government doesn't seem to give a damn AND this is the country which started off the Industrial Revolution !
As for the British being LESS racist than other cultures, yes, they may be less racist in a blatant or obvious manner (unlike Spaniards and Italians who make it quite openly known that they don't like blacks and Arabs for example - I have had many students from these countries and they were never ashamed to make their views known on this subject !). However, having lived here for 30 years I can only say that there is only a small minority of middle class, professional, educated British people who have any sort of inclination whatsoever to mix with (or even try to learn something from ?) people who are not born-bred English.
I have realised this quite clearly since leaving London (a very mixed race city) and moving to a predominantly white, middle class southern town. Most have very insular lives, no one ever bothers to ask you round for a coffee (not even the mums whose boys my son goes to school with) and even the ones who do seem interested in some form of human contact only see me as a possible baby-sitter for their children (not a problem in itself but then you realise they need you for a service rather than for friendship !!).
All of the above have convinced my family and I that we must move abroad after 30 years in the UK. In fact I wanted to move away 10 years ago, but I had just met my husband who came over to the UK from France and he didn't fancy going anywhere else at that time as he works in IT and was quite willing to stay here for the higher salary that he was offered. Now he too is regretting coming here ! It may be that the grass is not any greener on the other side, but I live in hope that our new destination is less insular, more welcoming to hard-working immigrants and generally more open minded.
At least it seems to me that places that are not so obssessed with "class" are less likely to look down on anyone and everyone who doesn't have the same sort of background as them. The latest English craze is calling everyone who isn't middle-class a "chav" (the equivalent of what you call "trailer trash" in the USA ?)
I say this with some irony, as I am white, private school educated, a lawyer who speaks English with a "posh" British accent, you would think that I would have zero problems fitting in, but that's where the Anglo-Saxon thing comes in and hits you right in the face and you realise that unless you have "English" blood flowing through your veins you can NEVER be one of them ! This is the reason so many millions of immigrants in the UK have issues with "integration". The Government doesn't talk about it and sweeps it under the carpet, it's too painful to face the reality it seems.
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What you say seems to hit the nail on the head, kayjay. The difference between being a true Australian and a true Briton is a bit different. Yes, there is a small minority who believe that the only true Australians are Anglo-Saxon Australians, but most people accept now that you can have ancestry anywhere in the world but if you were born here or in some cases adopted by this country you're as Australian as anywhere else. That's one advantage of living in an immigrant nation.
As for the British being LESS racist than other cultures, yes, they may be less racist in a blatant or obvious manner (unlike Spaniards and Italians who make it quite openly known that they don't like blacks and Arabs for example - I have had many students from these countries and they were never ashamed to make their views known on this subject !). However, having lived here for 30 years I can only say that there is only a small minority of middle class, professional, educated British people who have any sort of inclination whatsoever to mix with (or even try to learn something from ?) people who are not born-bred English.
I have realised this quite clearly since leaving London (a very mixed race city) and moving to a predominantly white, middle class southern town. Most have very insular lives, no one ever bothers to ask you round for a coffee (not even the mums whose boys my son goes to school with) and even the ones who do seem interested in some form of human contact only see me as a possible baby-sitter for their children (not a problem in itself but then you realise they need you for a service rather than for friendship !!).
At least it seems to me that places that are not so obssessed with "class" are less likely to look down on anyone and everyone who doesn't have the same sort of background as them.
I say this with some irony, as I am white, private school educated, a lawyer who speaks English with a "posh" British accent, you would think that I would have zero problems fitting in, but that's where the Anglo-Saxon thing comes in and hits you right in the face and you realise that unless you have "English" blood flowing through your veins you can NEVER be one of them ! This is the reason so many millions of immigrants in the UK have issues with "integration". The Government doesn't talk about it and sweeps it under the carpet, it's too painful to face the reality it seems.
That's exactly why I've said earlier that I see a difference between Britons and Americans/Canadians in this respect ( don't remember simply any Australians.)
I did have to deal with Britons because of my job mostly and that was an impression that I've got that it wouldn't be easy to live in Great Britain side by side with *natives* lol. ( But I wonder sometimes why it shouldn't be that way - after all they've set two ( no, make it three) countries aside for immigration, so that they'd be respectively left alone in their foggy surroundings.))) Yes, Britons can make you feel uncomfortable and insecure in a very special way; it's some kind of art, apparently)))
Yet on another hand they can be very witty and extremely humorous too ( big plus in my book) so it's always give and take when dealing with Britons as far as I'm concerned.
Quote:
The latest English craze is calling everyone who isn't middle-class a "chav" (the equivalent of what you call "trailer trash" in the USA ?)
Chav sounds more like "wigger" to me...
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There is a tendency towards chaos and flock formation here, maybe that's why you need to draw a number most of the time. The number system makes lines pretty obsolete. 
