Is England a better place to raise children? (crime rates, felony)

[Mulhall]

It's a case of folk devils and moral panics. One week the Daily Mail (LOL) has a story about feral children and chavs on the streets, whilst the next week there is a story regarding children not going out, playing too much computer games or spending too long on the internet rather than going out.

We have had all of this before from the Teddy Boys of the 1950's, to the Mods and Rockers of the 1960's to the Punks and Skins of the 70's, the larger louts and video nasties of the 80's, the acid house and ecstasy culture of the 1990's and in the 2000's the Daily Mail and other bastions of moral panic have identified the Chav as the great threat. Gangs of children swarming our streets dressed in burberry, hideous sprts wear and clad in disgusting tacky jewellery. Although the rise of the Hoody seems to be the new fixation, those Hoodies are terrible I tells yer, I saw one drinking cider down the park with his mates the other day - LMAO.

If Oliver Twist was alive today he would be classed as a Chav, along with the artful Dodger, as would a lot of the Dickensian Underclass.

As for the rise of definitions such as 'The Chav' (a word no one seems to now the real meaning of) it's been seen by some as a wider demonisation of the working class and poor in Britain, and as a means to reinforce negaitive sterotype regarding this section of our society.



In terms of our rose tinted spectacles when it comes to the past and a so called Golden Age, this is a good article -

Polly Toynbee: Scared witless | UK news | The Guardian

Surprising UK Crime Figures

• Around half of all violent crimes result in no injury whatsoever (according to both police figures and BCS).

• 71% of mugging (robbery and snatch theft) incidents result in no injury.

• The number of violent incidents has fallen by 36% since 1995.

• Certain "yobbish" behaviours (eg minor scuffles) have been reclassified as crime, with the effect of doubling recorded violent crime.

• A violent crime with many victims is no longer recorded as a single crime. An incident with 5 victims is now recorded as 5 crimes.

• A higher proportion of violent crime is recorded – eg the proportion of common assaults (without injury) recorded rose from around 50% to 68% between 2002 and 2003.


Anxiety Culture: Media scaremongering on crime

Media Hell - Fallacy: "Violence is spiralling"

Crime figures 'don't add up' - Telegraph

Polly Toynbee: Don't let the truth get in the way of a bad crime story | Comment is free | The Guardian


There were 619 muders in England & Wales (population 54 million) in 2010/11. The biggest single cause of murder in the UK being domestic violence and someon you know rather than murder by a stranger.

Murder rate lowest for 12 years | UK news | The Guardian

There were 103 murders in London (population 7.85 million) in the last 12 months (down 22% on last year)

Metropolitan Police Crime Figures for London - Metropolitan Police Service - Crime Figures

There were 40 Gun Homicides in England & Wales (population 54 million) in 2009/10

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF05.htm

In terms of serious violent crime the UK has one of the lowest figures in the world, in terms of minor and nuisance crime, we often record it in our violent crime figures leading to a massive inflation of the figures and an over recording of crime. The new Government is currently looking at taking certain low level crimes off the list of crimes deemed as violent, as it is making a mockery of our figures. Although the fact the figures are so skewed because of the over recording of minor crime doesn't get in the way of idiotic journalists trying to write a daft sensationalist story.

[Mulhall]

Louis Theroux's recent Documentary about Crime in Philadelphia

[irish_bob]

Originally Posted by Mulhall

It's a case of folk devils and moral panics. One week the Daily Mail (LOL) has a story about feral children and chavs on the streets, whilst the next week there is a story regarding children not going out, playing too much computer games or spending too long on the internet rather than going out.

We have had all of this before from the Teddy Boys of the 1950's, to the Mods and Rockers of the 1960's to the Punks and Skins of the 70's, the larger louts and video nasties of the 80's, the acid house and ecstasy culture of the 1990's and in the 2000's the Daily Mail and other bastions of moral panic have identified the Chav as the great threat. Gangs of children swarming our streets dressed in burberry, hideous sprts wear and clad in disgusting tacky jewellery. Although the rise of the Hoody seems to be the new fixation, those Hoodies are terrible I tells yer, I saw one drinking cider down the park with his mates the other day - LMAO.

If Oliver Twist was alive today he would be classed as a Chav, along with the artful Dodger, as would a lot of the Dickensian Underclass.

As for the rise of definitions such as 'The Chav' (a word no one seems to now the real meaning of) it's been seen by some as a wider demonisation of the working class and poor in Britain, and as a means to reinforce negaitive sterotype regarding this section of our society.



In terms of our rose tinted spectacles when it comes to the past and a so called Golden Age, this is a good article -

Polly Toynbee: Scared witless | UK news | The Guardian

Surprising UK Crime Figures

• Around half of all violent crimes result in no injury whatsoever (according to both police figures and BCS).

• 71% of mugging (robbery and snatch theft) incidents result in no injury.

• The number of violent incidents has fallen by 36% since 1995.

• Certain "yobbish" behaviours (eg minor scuffles) have been reclassified as crime, with the effect of doubling recorded violent crime.

• A violent crime with many victims is no longer recorded as a single crime. An incident with 5 victims is now recorded as 5 crimes.

• A higher proportion of violent crime is recorded – eg the proportion of common assaults (without injury) recorded rose from around 50% to 68% between 2002 and 2003.


Anxiety Culture: Media scaremongering on crime

Media Hell - Fallacy: "Violence is spiralling"

Crime figures 'don't add up' - Telegraph

Polly Toynbee: Don't let the truth get in the way of a bad crime story | Comment is free | The Guardian


There were 619 muders in England & Wales (population 54 million) in 2010/11. The biggest single cause of murder in the UK being domestic violence and someon you know rather than murder by a stranger.

Murder rate lowest for 12 years | UK news | The Guardian

There were 103 murders in London (population 7.85 million) in the last 12 months (down 22% on last year)

Metropolitan Police Crime Figures for London - Metropolitan Police Service - Crime Figures

There were 40 Gun Homicides in England & Wales (population 54 million) in 2009/10

http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF05.htm

In terms of serious violent crime the UK has one of the lowest figures in the world, in terms of minor and nuisance crime, we often record it in our violent crime figures leading to a massive inflation of the figures and an over recording of crime. The new Government is currently looking at taking certain low level crimes off the list of crimes deemed as violent, as it is making a mockery of our figures. Although the fact the figures are so skewed because of the over recording of minor crime doesn't get in the way of idiotic journalists trying to write a daft sensationalist story.

chav culture in the uk is a bit like hip hop culture in the usa in that its been comercially packaged and in many ways sold to the middle class in both countries , various chavy music stars and chavy tv shows like shameless are hugely popular with the middle class in the uk

[Judge_Smails]

Originally Posted by sunshineleith

What are you basing this on?

Personal experience with both systems. Std. Deviation in PISA scores. The Observer school rankings vs. Greatschools stats.

And after all that I said, "your mileage will vary".

Disclaimered enough now?

[sunshineleith]

Originally Posted by Judge_Smails

Personal experience with both systems. Std. Deviation in PISA scores. The Observer school rankings vs. Greatschools stats.

And after all that I said, "your mileage will vary".

Disclaimered enough now?

No need to be rude. It was a fair question.

[Willsson]

Originally Posted by Judge_Smails

Personal experience with both systems. Std. Deviation in PISA scores. The Observer school rankings vs. Greatschools stats.

And after all that I said, "your mileage will vary".

Disclaimered enough now?

Southerngirl1989, Judge_Smails sums it up about right, 'your mileage will vary.' Your experience will be what you make it, regardless of how many grandparents you have with an English background. And a couple of French ones thrown in for diversity.

You can raise a kid in a family with two smoking alcoholics and a schizophrenic sibling in either country and probably get fairly similar results. You can raise a kid in a socially and financially successful family which practices respect for others and nurtures mutual caring in either country and probably get good results. It all depends on how you develop that family. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with dead people.

Visit England a few times before making a decision. Walk the streets, visit the markets, in both the middle of the day and the middle of the night. Then go home and let it settle in.

I would just suggest that raising a kid in Europe might give them a broader cultural view of the world. But there are aspects of my U.S. experience I certainly wouldn't trade. But again, it all depends on the parents. Education begins at home.

Remember, your mileage may vary.

[dragonborn]

Originally Posted by irish_bob

chav culture in the uk is a bit like hip hop culture in the usa in that its been comercially packaged and in many ways sold to the middle class in both countries , various chavy music stars and chavy tv shows like shameless are hugely popular with the middle class in the uk

Chavs are basically the underclass. Some of them are unsavoury, most are actually harmless though. They are a biproduct of over a century old class division, social exclusion, lack of investment in education and dwindling manufacturing industry (since these people are most likely ancestors of the former working class, most would have worked in factories).

As much as I love the UK, I know there are some no go areas and many of these kids do purposely go out of their way to look for trouble. However though, Britain's level of serious violent crime and homicide is nowhere near that of certain other countries and despite social mobility being as statistically bad as the US, with a bit of belief in yourself, it's actually easier and a lot cheaper to get an education in the UK.

[ian6479]

Originally Posted by dragonborn

Chavs are basically the underclass. Some of them are unsavoury, most are actually harmless though. They are a biproduct of over a century old class division, social exclusion, lack of investment in education and dwindling manufacturing industry (since these people are most likely ancestors of the former working class, most would have worked in factories).

As much as I love the UK, I know there are some no go areas and many of these kids do purposely go out of their way to look for trouble. However though, Britain's level of serious violent crime and homicide is nowhere near that of certain other countries and despite social mobility being as statistically bad as the US, with a bit of belief in yourself, it's actually easier and a lot cheaper to get an education in the UK.

Serious violent crime and/or homicide may be lower but is serious violent crime and/or murder something you worry about or come across on a regular basis, if ever? Here is a link that shows total crimes per country: the US has twice the amount of the UK but per capita the UK is far higher, and terrible for a developed nation. It has 2.5 times the number of crimes recorded than the US. Given my experience of living in both, I'd say that sounds about right.

Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime

[moonman13]

Oh come on, look at those statistics; taking them at face value you would assume that not only are countries like Albania safer than the UK, but that they are VASTLY safer. All that can really be inferred from that graph is that people report crime and the police record crime with greater proficiency in the UK. I would also suggest that a greater ratio of people living in cities may be a factor. Remember also that a lot of recorded crime is irrelevant to the individual; skipping the train fare, shoplifting etc.

I was state educated in the UK and your kid will be fine going to a normal school.

[dragonborn]

Originally Posted by ian6479

Serious violent crime and/or homicide may be lower but is serious violent crime and/or murder something you worry about or come across on a regular basis, if ever? Here is a link that shows total crimes per country: the US has twice the amount of the UK but per capita the UK is far higher, and terrible for a developed nation. It has 2.5 times the number of crimes recorded than the US. Given my experience of living in both, I'd say that sounds about right.

Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime

Well it is something I worry about. I once lived very close to a particularly dangerous part of Miami that'd make even the roughest British council estate look idyllic in comparison. The murder rates for Miami + New Orleans combined are greater than that of the entire UK.

It's simply that if you're middle or upper class in the US, there's less risk of trouble finding you, as the poor in the US tend to be a lot more marginalised.

The graph doesn't tell me a whole lot anyway. Crimes are reported and recorded differently depending on the country. Honestly, no one has messed with me in either the UK or the US.

Britain's problems could be largely solved if governments grew a pair, actually listened to the electorate and made real efforts to integrate the underclass, even if only for future generations, but no one seems to care enough beyond reading Daily Mail rants.