Is England a better place to raise children? (2013, credit)

[sunshineleith]

Originally Posted by ian6479

How? The stats show the opposite. I read a statistic recently that stated that half of British 14 year olds are illiterate!! With funding cuts and the victimization of teachers - how are things going in the right direction???

There are stats on behaviour?? Because that is what Amanda-Kavanagh, Baldrick and Englishgirl were discussing. Not scholastic achievement.

[dragonborn]

Originally Posted by ian6479

How? The stats show the opposite. I read a statistic recently that stated that half of British 14 year olds are illiterate!! With funding cuts and the victimization of teachers - how are things going in the right direction???

Do you have the link to that statistic? I find that just a tad hard to believe. One of my brothers is a teacher too and doesn't speak of being victimised. The schoo he teaches at has a large council estate within its catchment area. Underfunded? Of course, but talk to teachers here in the US and they'll tell you the same thing, as schools here also suffer from massive underfunding. As for classroom discipline, bullying seems to be much more of a problem over here for whatever reason. At least it's getting more attention now though.

I encounter plenty of poor spelling, grammar and punctuation here in the US, even from people who went to college. I'm not saying that one system is better than the other per se, but it's a little unfair to say that about the UK.

[sunshineleith]

According to actual studies on which students are better behaved, UK students are better behaved than American students - by a hair's breadth. So not much in that.

From Japanese students best behaved in the world "A report by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has found that Japanese pupils are the best behaved in the world.
The OECD report, which was based on results from 2009, showed that ...
The United Kingdom finished in 28th place, while the United States and Germany were right behind."


Read more: Japanese students best behaved in the world

[ian6479]

Originally Posted by dragonborn

Do you have the link to that statistic? I find that just a tad hard to believe. One of my brothers is a teacher too and doesn't speak of being victimised. The schoo he teaches at has a large council estate within its catchment area. Underfunded? Of course, but talk to teachers here in the US and they'll tell you the same thing, as schools here also suffer from massive underfunding. As for classroom discipline, bullying seems to be much more of a problem over here for whatever reason. At least it's getting more attention now though.

I encounter plenty of poor spelling, grammar and punctuation here in the US, even from people who went to college. I'm not saying that one system is better than the other per se, but it's a little unfair to say that about the UK.

Both countries are heading in the wrong direction. By victimized I meant by the public - paying too much, debt etc. I think we are losing the value of education and looking at it as a cost to society rather than a benefit. This is whilst China and other emerging economies are doing the exact opposite.

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | England falls in reading league

m.guardian.co.uk


This is why I ask the question "how is this the right direction?"

True story: in my last company in England - i was in a room one day going through a new learning technology that we were going to roll out across the business. Our 'learning and development manager' for 70,000 people actually said "I don't know why we need math in schools anymore, I mean we have calculators don't we". When I said "uh what about logic", she replied "what's that got to do with math"!! And she went to Oxford!!!!

[dragonborn]

Originally Posted by ian6479

Both countries are heading in the wrong direction. By victimized I meant by the public - paying too much, debt etc. I think we are losing the value of education and looking at it as a cost to society rather than a benefit. This is whilst China and other emerging economies are doing the exact opposite.

BBC NEWS | UK | Education | England falls in reading league

m.guardian.co.uk


This is why I ask the question "how is this the right direction?"

True story: in my last company in England - i was in a room one day going through a new learning technology that we were going to roll out across the business. Our 'learning and development manager' for 70,000 people actually said "I don't know why we need math in schools anymore, I mean we have calculators don't we". When I said "uh what about logic", she replied "what's that got to do with math"!! And she went to Oxford!!!!

I kind of despair with the Anglosphere countries in general. We all seem to be going down the same path, neglecting education. Teachers are grossly underpaid and under appreciated, schools are lacking in funds. Higher education is grossly expensive in the US and not too far off that in the UK, with the tuition hike.

Frankly, between you, me and the gate post, with all that's happened, I am praying to win the lottery so that I can maybe move to Sweden or Norway someday. I don't think I belong in any of the English speaking nations and cannot stomach unregulated capitalism and dog eat dog greed.

[Cavaturaccioli]

Without comment:

The Ugly Brutishness of Modern Britain

A demotic egalitariansim, allied with multiculturalism, has rendered civility passé.


By THEODORE DALRYMPLE

A few days ago at a crowded bus-stop in the city of Nottingham, a fat youth of about 13 started to throw food at a friend. Some of it nearly hit me and landed on the ground just beyond me, making a mess.
"Excuse me," I said to the youth, "could you pick that up?"
"Shut the f— up!" he snarled, with real hatred contorting his face.
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, in England, come—obscenities. No one at the bus stop dared say, much less do, anything. For increasingly, the English are a people who know neither inner nor outer restraint. They turn to aggression, if not to violence, the moment they are thwarted, even in trifles. And those who are neither aggressive nor violent are by no means sure that the law will take their side in the event of a fracas. It is better, or easier, for them to pretend not to notice anything, even if it means living in constant fear.
Under the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that, according to a survey recently conducted by Lloyds Bank, a fifth of all people with assets of more than $640,000 are thinking of leaving the country. Personally I am surprised it is so few. Other surveys have shown that at least 50% of the population wants to leave, in the main to flee the other 50% of the population.

More: Theodore Dalrymple: The Ugly Brutishness of Modern Britain - WSJ.com

[Mulhall]

Originally Posted by Cavaturaccioli

Without comment:

The Ugly Brutishness of Modern Britain

A demotic egalitariansim, allied with multiculturalism, has rendered civility passé.


By THEODORE DALRYMPLE

A few days ago at a crowded bus-stop in the city of Nottingham, a fat youth of about 13 started to throw food at a friend. Some of it nearly hit me and landed on the ground just beyond me, making a mess.
"Excuse me," I said to the youth, "could you pick that up?"
"Shut the f— up!" he snarled, with real hatred contorting his face.
Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings, in England, come—obscenities. No one at the bus stop dared say, much less do, anything. For increasingly, the English are a people who know neither inner nor outer restraint. They turn to aggression, if not to violence, the moment they are thwarted, even in trifles. And those who are neither aggressive nor violent are by no means sure that the law will take their side in the event of a fracas. It is better, or easier, for them to pretend not to notice anything, even if it means living in constant fear.
Under the circumstances, it is hardly surprising that, according to a survey recently conducted by Lloyds Bank, a fifth of all people with assets of more than $640,000 are thinking of leaving the country. Personally I am surprised it is so few. Other surveys have shown that at least 50% of the population wants to leave, in the main to flee the other 50% of the population.

More: Theodore Dalrymple: The Ugly Brutishness of Modern Britain - WSJ.com

That's a bit of a generalisation given the one encounter at a bus stop in Nottingham.

It's also a well known fact that people are living and working throughout the EU, Britain having had over one million Polish arrive over the last decade and lots of other people have relocated from other countries including 300,000 French in London. The Costa Del Sol in Spain is home to a massive British Community as are parts of France. In the same way as Americans and particuarly the retired flock to places such as Florida in the US. London imparticular is a magnet for people from across the world in the same way NYC is, and the London population is projected to grow significantly, along with the UK population over coming decades.

The fact that you can live and work anywhere within the EU has opened a lot of doors in both directions, and I have little doubt that London and indeed Britain will be seeing an increasing number of the Greek middle class and others from across the Eurozone arriving here.

In terms of Education, Britain is still above average in terms of the OECD Scale and is not massively behind, there is also quite a bit of good work going on in the British Education Sector. Turning around some problem schools and improving the professional status of teachers being amongst the biggest challenges. It's not all doom and gloom though, Britain is a very good country and the vast majority of young people are very well behaved.

BBC News - Raise teacher status to improve schools, says OECD

I note that some of the new Academies to be opened to replace problem schools are to be entirely staffed by Ex-Military Personnel and will have a more rigorous approach to dicipline. I wonder if Baldrick has any views on this ???

New free school to be run by ex-soldiers - Telegraph

Military Should Run Troubled Schools - Telegraph

Soldiers 'should run schools in crackdown on indiscipline' - Telegraph

[sunshineleith]

Originally Posted by dragonborn

I kind of despair with the Anglosphere countries in general. We all seem to be going down the same path, neglecting education. Teachers are grossly underpaid and under appreciated, schools are lacking in funds. Higher education is grossly expensive in the US and not too far off that in the UK, with the tuition hike.

Frankly, between you, me and the gate post, with all that's happened, I am praying to win the lottery so that I can maybe move to Sweden or Norway someday. I don't think I belong in any of the English speaking nations and cannot stomach unregulated capitalism and dog eat dog greed.

Ah you mustn't despair just yet! A few miles north of where you're living is a country that scores very well for education (Canada). And NZ and Australia were also in the top 10 for PISA scores along with your northern neighbour! All Anglosphere. http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf Not sure how those countries did on the "best behaved students" study as I couldn't seem to access the entire results. The bizarre one was Finland which was in the bottom three for behaviour and the top three for PISA scores!

[ian6479]

Originally Posted by Mulhall

That's a bit of a generalisation given the one encounter at a bus stop in Nottingham.

It's also a well known fact that people are living and working throughout the EU, Britain having had over one million Polish arrive over the last decade and lots of other people have relocated from other countries including 300,000 French in London. The Costa Del Sol in Spain is home to a massive British Community as are parts of France. In the same way as Americans and particuarly the retired flock to places such as Florida in the US. London imparticular is a magnet for people from across the world in the same way NYC is, and the London population is projected to grow significantly, along with the UK population over coming decades.

The fact that you can live and work anywhere within the EU has opened a lot of doors in both directions, and I have little doubt that London and indeed Britain will be seeing an increasing number of the Greek middle class and others from across the Eurozone arriving here.

In terms of Education, Britain is still above average in terms of the OECD Scale and is not massively behind, there is also quite a bit of good work going on in the British Education Sector. Turning around some problem schools and improving the professional status of teachers being amongst the biggest challenges. It's not all doom and gloom though, Britain is a very good country and the vast majority of young people are very well behaved.

BBC News - Raise teacher status to improve schools, says OECD

I note that some of the new Academies to be opened to replace problem schools are to be entirely staffed by Ex-Military Personnel and will have a more rigorous approach to dicipline. I wonder if Baldrick has any views on this ???

New free school to be run by ex-soldiers - Telegraph

Military Should Run Troubled Schools - Telegraph

Soldiers 'should run schools in crackdown on indiscipline' - Telegraph

what has any of the comments in bold got to do with it?? And again, how are things moving forward? The government moved to strip teachers of their pension benefits last year! Is this improving their "status"???

And military education? For queen and country right

[Mulhall]

Originally Posted by ian6479

what has any of the comments in bold got to do with it?? And again, how are things moving forward? The government moved to strip teachers of their pension benefits last year! Is this improving their "status"???

And military education? For queen and country right

I was merely replying to the article and I don't need you to tell me what I can and can't write. I can decide what I write myself.

In terms of pensions, there has been a review of all public sector workers in relation to pensions, with such things as early retirement stopped and some pension reduction. I personally wasn't in support of this, however it has been done. In terms of increasing the status of teachers if you bothered to read the article the OECD made some reccomendations themselves.

As for military education I didn't say that I supported it, all I did was post the links as a matter of interest, indeed it was Baldrick a serving soldiers viewpoint I was interested in, if you read the post.