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It very clearly stated that shoppers of M&S can be told to checkout at a different till in these scenarios.
So then what's the issue?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse44
2nd, sure it's a private company and they can make their own rules, but it's still ridiculous considering ultimately their goal is to serve the general public...of the UK. And of course your opinion matters if you are not between the employee and the employer since public opinion tends to influence the success of a business. So far you seem to be of the very select few who thinks this is a reasonable measure.
The success of a business has little to do with public opinion and everything to do with where the public spends their dime. Monsanto very successful company, almost universally reviled, News International, very successful company, almost universally reviled, any high street bank very successful company, almost universally reviled. Microsoft very successful company, almost universally reviled. I can go on...
Public opinion is very frequently wrong. You're missing the bigger picture, lets assume that M&S rescind their policy to Muslims, ok they find out that Hindu's don't need to work the meat counter, or Jews don't work Saturdays, so sue M&S for prejudicial treatment, and it's a legal precedent. So now all employers for legal safety stop all concessions to employees on religious grounds, to be fair both legally and morally. Then it opens the door on what else is prejudicial, are married or unmarried people given preferential treatment? Are people with or without children? Can an employer for instance give a concession to a recovering alcoholic employee for time off etc. that they would not give to a non alcoholic employee? What about long term illnesses? How about women vs. men, are men due the same time off as women for both medical and on birth of children currently the legal obligation is limited to 2 weeks?
It opens a huge potential can of worms that will negatively impact both employees and employers. It switches employment concessions to something that is discretionary, to something which is prohibited except under very narrow circumstances. Sadly those discretionary concessions are the things that people frequently most highly value from their employers too.
This thread pops up out of nowhere and the place becomes a hive of activity from posters we hardly ever see.
Why is that?
I'm sure that if the Toriegraph reported that M&S had agreed to let their vegetarian staff members be absolved from working on the Deli counter; these same posters would be just as fired up with righteous indignation.
This thread pops up out of nowhere and the place becomes a hive of activity from posters we hardly ever see.
Why is that?
Would it be disingenuous of me to suggest that there might be a batch of people on C-D that specifically type the world "Muslim" into the search option so that they may comment on what they read?
You're 100% spot on, but sadly, that's not the way they see it. Very sad, as in a Muslim country you are given 40 lashes for drinking, even if it is part of your religion (Catholic mass).
There's nothing inherently wrong with being unhappy with M&S making the decision reported in the OP. But comments like this highlight that many people's response is motivated and heightened by an underlying dislike and ignorance of Muslim culture, rather than a wish for 'fairness'. You've obviously never visited, say, Turkey, Egypt or Malaysia, three major Muslim countries in which drinking alcohol is perfectly permissible. And you also don't seem to be aware that the law varies widely across the Muslim world more generally, as it does everywhere.
There's a simple solution to that. When an applicant applies for a job, management can tell them, 'this job requires you to handle pork and alcohol. If this makes you uncomfortable this position will not be suitable for you.' If that goes against your religion, find another job. In fact, pork and booze is all around England. If one finds it offensive one is better off staying in their own country or migrating to Iran or Saudi Arabia.
The success of a business has little to do with public opinion and everything to do with where the public spends their dime. Monsanto very successful company, almost universally reviled, News International, very successful company, almost universally reviled, any high street bank very successful company, almost universally reviled. Microsoft very successful company, almost universally reviled. I can go on...
Public opinion is very frequently wrong. You're missing the bigger picture, lets assume that M&S rescind their policy to Muslims, ok they find out that Hindu's don't need to work the meat counter, or Jews don't work Saturdays, so sue M&S for prejudicial treatment, and it's a legal precedent. So now all employers for legal safety stop all concessions to employees on religious grounds, to be fair both legally and morally. Then it opens the door on what else is prejudicial, are married or unmarried people given preferential treatment? Are people with or without children? Can an employer for instance give a concession to a recovering alcoholic employee for time off etc. that they would not give to a non alcoholic employee? What about long term illnesses? How about women vs. men, are men due the same time off as women for both medical and on birth of children currently the legal obligation is limited to 2 weeks?
It opens a huge potential can of worms that will negatively impact both employees and employers. It switches employment concessions to something that is discretionary, to something which is prohibited except under very narrow circumstances. Sadly those discretionary concessions are the things that people frequently most highly value from their employers too.
This is hardly a concession. I already mentioned that I have no issue with the examples you just mentioned, but it isn't comparable to refusing to handle pork and alcohol as a cashier in a store. Like somebody just mentioned, should a Christian be allowed to refuse to sell condoms? Refuse to service a homosexual? Yes, people are of diverse religions in th UK, but this is the service industry. If you managed to make it as far as being a cashier when you were employed, this shouldn't be a problem. Nobody cares what you believe in at the check out line, because it is irrelevant.
And all you did was allude to a few exceptions of when public opinion did not affect a company. Overwhelmingly so, it does. What do big banks, Monsanto, and Microsoft all have in common? They all have pretty much a monopoly with the chance of very little competition coming in. I don't think that's the case with a department type store.
There's a simple solution to that. When an applicant applies for a job, management can tell them, 'this job requires you to handle pork and alcohol. If this makes you uncomfortable this position will not be suitable for you.' If that goes against your religion, find another job. In fact, pork and booze is all around England. If one finds it offensive one is better off staying in their own country or migrating to Iran or Saudi Arabia.
Except that management can't decide that, because that is not the policy of this particular company. This is a matter between a British company and its British-based Muslim staff, many of whom are, indeed, British. If the fact that a company here is free to introduce such a policy if it wishes, perhaps you should refrain from visiting?
Except that management can't decide that, because that is not the policy of this particular company. This is a matter between a British company and its British-based Muslim staff, many of whom are, indeed, British. If the fact that a company here is free to introduce such a policy if it wishes, perhaps you should refrain from visiting?
I didn't buy anything from M&S anyway. I'm glad I don't live in such a PC place where native Britons are inconvenienced for the sake of the inflexible and archaic requirements of a minority.
There's nothing inherently wrong with being unhappy with M&S making the decision reported in the OP. But comments like this highlight that many people's response is motivated and heightened by an underlying dislike and ignorance of Muslim culture, rather than a wish for 'fairness'. You've obviously never visited, say, Turkey, Egypt or Malaysia, three major Muslim countries in which drinking alcohol is perfectly permissible. And you also don't seem to be aware that the law varies widely across the Muslim world more generally, as it does everywhere.
The ignorance is not me with Muslim culture, but Muslim culture with Britain! Accept the culture you are arriving into and there will be no ignorance, you can have an opinion, vote etc that's all well and good. Don't refuse service for religious beliefs. I don't care if you are Jewish and attempt refusing sale of Ham, or Muslim refusing the sale of alcohol and pork, if you arrive in another culture and try to force these views, not through the correct manner, just by saying 'No', then that's unjust.
I actually have family in Turkey, and you are wrong. It isn't a Muslim country, it is secularist with large Muslim communities, and a tyrant in charge trying to clamp down on drinking in the country. Therefore it's acceptable to choose to drink or not. I'm very aware the 'law' varies! However, it's 'law' based on the same book, that is clearly interpreted differently in different countries.
I have nothing against Muslims, and it's a difficult topic to discuss as the majority of people find it a taboo subject to discuss.
If this was about a Jewish woman refusing to sell ham would it have the same affect? No, there would be nothing discussed about her culture, or the culture she is living in, it would be an all out attack on the woman.
I never said she doesn't have the right to those views, as those are her religious rights, but don't take on a role in which you know 100% you won't come into contact with those products.
Question: Was this the first customer she served at M&S that brought forward alcohol and pork? If not, why did she not refuse the first time. Or is there another motive to her refusal of sale?
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