Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The bottom line is if Dublin and nationalist/republican people had accepted the right of Ulster to go its own way then a lot of people would be alive today instead of being in a grave.
Interesting way to look at it, and clearly from an opposite perspective as many Irish and others would see it.
From a historical perspective, they would have the view that "planter Scots" should not have been intentionally brought over to be given Irish land, and serve their English overlords.
Still others would say that had Britain made a clean break and left Ireland all together, "a lot of people would be alive today".
As a comparison, Britain saw the writing on the wall with their complete withdrawal from India which was a world away. But they are just across the channel with NI, so decided they could maintain control if they so chose.
Interesting way to look at it, and clearly from an opposite perspective as many Irish and others would see it.
From a historical perspective, they would have the view that "planter Scots" should not have been intentionally brought over to be given Irish land, and serve their English overlords.
Still others would say that had Britain made a clean break and left Ireland all together, "a lot of people would be alive today".
As a comparison, Britain saw the writing on the wall with their complete withdrawal from India which was a world away. But they are just across the channel with NI, so decided they could maintain control if they so chose.
`
A lot of ways of looking at it when you go into past distant history. The island has been invaded by different groups the Celts being one of them. They took the land of the indigenous people.
I was referring to more recent times and the murder campaign launched by the IRA. Its interesting to note that Scotland and Wales are where they are today without the violence shown by the IRA and their fellow travellers
A lot of ways of looking at it when you go into past distant history. The island has been invaded by different groups the Celts being one of them. They took the land of the indigenous people.
I was referring to more recent times and the murder campaign launched by the IRA. Its interesting to note that Scotland and Wales are where they are today without the violence shown by the IRA and their fellow travellers
Interesting way to look at it, and clearly from an opposite perspective as many Irish and others would see it.
From a historical perspective, they would have the view that "planter Scots" should not have been intentionally brought over to be given Irish land, and serve their English overlords.
Still others would say that had Britain made a clean break and left Ireland all together, "a lot of people would be alive today".
As a comparison, Britain saw the writing on the wall with their complete withdrawal from India which was a world away. But they are just across the channel with NI, so decided they could maintain control if they so chose.
`
THe UK's mistake was not allowing home rule in ireland,and not federalizing all the kingdoms in the UK. Each kingdom should have been treated like a state with its own home rule and london should have been made into washington DC. The house of lords should have been abolished and replaced with a senate. THe irish sea tunnel should have been created to forge deeper links between the british isles.
Having the Irish fight in WW1 did not help since this created trained soldiers. The irish also just like to fight period.
To this day, ireland depends on the UK for defense even though they are not apart of NATO. The irish can't even protect their skies from the russians.
A lot of ways of looking at it when you go into past distant history. The island has been invaded by different groups the Celts being one of them. They took the land of the indigenous people.
I know what you were referring to and we can certainly discuss that as well. But recent strife (depending on how one defines "recent") was not created in a vacuum. Rather it is a direct result of previous decisions made by the powers that be. Thus, reversing your premise, had Britain fully withdrew from Ireland, many lives would not have been lost.
Can we agree at least on that point?
Additionally, comparing thousands of years vs. less than 100 years ago is beyond reasonable.
Thus I wouldn't call less than 100 years "distant history".
After all, it was not all that long ago that Britain was forced out of India, but still made a mess of things by creating two states, instead of one.
The Amritsar Massacre was but the last straw, much as Bloody Sunday was for the Irish. The only thing that separated the two was the scope and magnitude of the number of people killed and wounded.
I guess one could argue that a couple of decades taught the British to fully withdraw, not try to keep hold of a section of the country.
Then again, it might not have been a lesson they learned, but rather they were being pragmatic based on logistics and proximity.
I know what you were referring to and we can certainly discuss that as well. But recent strife (depending on how one defines "recent") was not created in a vacuum. Rather it is a direct result of previous decisions made by the powers that be. Thus, reversing your premise, had Britain fully withdrew from Ireland, many lives would not have been lost.
Can we agree at least on that point?
Additionally, comparing thousands of years vs. less than 100 years ago is beyond reasonable.
Thus I wouldn't call less than 100 years "distant history".
After all, it was not all that long ago that Britain was forced out of India, but still made a mess of things by creating two states, instead of one.
The Amritsar Massacre was but the last straw, much as Bloody Sunday was for the Irish. The only thing that separated the two was the scope and magnitude of the number of people killed and wounded.
I guess one could argue that a couple of decades taught the British to fully withdraw, not try to keep hold of a section of the country.
Then again, it might not have been a lesson they learned, but rather they were being pragmatic based on logistics and proximity.
comparing a thousand years ago with the past century or two is not so much unreasonable as
I know what you were referring to and we can certainly discuss that as well. But recent strife (depending on how one defines "recent") was not created in a vacuum. Rather it is a direct result of previous decisions made by the powers that be. Thus, reversing your premise, had Britain fully withdrew from Ireland, many lives would not have been lost.
Can we agree at least on that point?
Additionally, comparing thousands of years vs. less than 100 years ago is beyond reasonable.
Thus I wouldn't call less than 100 years "distant history".
After all, it was not all that long ago that Britain was forced out of India, but still made a mess of things by creating two states, instead of one.
The Amritsar Massacre was but the last straw, much as Bloody Sunday was for the Irish. The only thing that separated the two was the scope and magnitude of the number of people killed and wounded.
I guess one could argue that a couple of decades taught the British to fully withdraw, not try to keep hold of a section of the country.
Then again, it might not have been a lesson they learned, but rather they were being pragmatic based on logistics and proximity.
The UVF was formed to fight against British withdrawal and to also fight against the Irish who were forcing them to go where they did not want to go. In the words of the ballad..
''We took some smuggled rifles of the Clydevalley to fight the South or England or whatever enemy would drag us into bondage and deny our liberty we marched with the Armagh Brigade ''.
They backed this up when the went to the Somme and died in their thousands. They meant business and unlike the IRA and others were prepared to fight in open warfare.
The Irish usually go back 800 years when they complain about England despite the fact that they invited them to come to Ireland to help settle a local dispute.
The UVF was formed to fight against British withdrawal and to also fight against the Irish who were forcing them to go where they did not want to go. In the words of the ballad..
''We took some smuggled rifles of the Clydevalley to fight the South or England or whatever enemy would drag us into bondage and deny our liberty we marched with the Armagh Brigade ''.
They backed this up when the went to the Somme and died in their thousands. They meant business and unlike the IRA and others were prepared to fight in open warfare.
The Irish usually go back 800 years when they complain about England despite the fact that they invited them to come to Ireland to help settle a local dispute.
when you mention the somme , there were actually more soldiers lost from the south than the north during that battle , both peoples fought together at that time
the ulster covenant did go against the british governments own plan for home rule , it was a pre emptive revolt , a promise to london that if home rule was granted , ulster unionists would embark on a terrorist campaign , with the help of bonar law , the government in london blinked , then WW 1 happened and many irish believed joining the fight would help achieve home rule , the irish leader in the commons at the time john redmond lost all his political power when the easter rising of 1916 happened
an eventful decade indeed , all changed utterly
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
