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Old 03-11-2019, 10:01 AM
 
5,606 posts, read 3,479,220 times
Reputation: 7413

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Let me say I appreciate the reasoned and thoughtful reply, as it was more than I expected to the question.

Let me answer the last question first.
Weren't many surprised just how many did vote for independence?
Obviously polling can be manipulated in various ways, as one needs look no further than Brexit or Americas 2016 presidential election to know that.
Still from what I understand Scotland came closer than most expected, and they had not been consistently demanding and fighting for independence like Ireland/NI has.

Also, and someone like English Dave can correct me, but I think the large number of Scots voting to leave rankled people, especially those in England who feel everyone is ungrateful, including the Irish.
Yet they all have greater representation than do the English themselves in their view. So why continue to pump money into these places and give them a greater say, while the average Englishmen cannot stand up for themselves in the same way.
Even the Welsh have a voice and can speak for their interests over the English.
Heck if I were English I might think the same thing myself, especially as it relates to NI. Who in their right mind would want to have to serve in the military, and potentially be hurt/killed just to try and hold onto land that the people were fighting and dying to get out of the UK.

The next point is related to you saying there has not been a clamoring for a united Ireland. While that might be accurate intermittently, many an article, documentary and politics has said otherwise (not to even bring the "Troubles" into it).
So the ebb and flow have always been there, but to the average mainland Brit, they probably became ambivalent to it, if ever they cared to begin with.
Out of sight, out of mind so to speak.

Now of course the Ulster Unionists know what I am talking about, as they feel like the red headed step child in all this. How can the majority of fellow Brits ignore the situation you'll essentially put us in over here, and just go about your daily lives.
They may hearken back to a day where they and the Irish got along better, and wish for a return of that "normalcy".
But that would also ignore the fact the Irish were being treated like 2nd class citizens on a good day in NI.
So when you hear the refrain "that the government has failed all sides", it gives one pause.

I did get a little long winded, but my initial thrust was related to why oppose such a vote if you and others think it would fail anyway.
Heck if it did pass, would that be better for mainland Brits anyway?


`


I'd respond but to be honest having waded through all this ill-informed gibberish I haven't got the will or patience to bother.
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:42 AM
 
7,873 posts, read 10,224,164 times
Reputation: 5605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
I'd respond but to be honest having waded through all this ill-informed gibberish I haven't got the will or patience to bother.


It's like listening to a know nothing - know it all taxi driver who's level of boorishness is only matched by how proud of his ignorance he is
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:48 AM
 
5,606 posts, read 3,479,220 times
Reputation: 7413
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
It's like listening to a know nothing - know it all taxi driver who's level of boorishness is only matched by how proud of his ignorance he is
Did you find Ulster province on the map yet ?
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:13 AM
 
16,166 posts, read 8,313,007 times
Reputation: 19065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
I'd respond but to be honest having waded through all this ill-informed gibberish I haven't got the will or patience to bother.
Fine, I get it, as you have made this clear before.
I even acknowledged I was long winded. Others might find some merit to it or an interesting point they wish to address.

However, in your case, try just addressing the central point about opposition to a vote, and leave the other "gibberish" as you put it, aside.

`
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Old 03-11-2019, 11:52 AM
 
7,873 posts, read 10,224,164 times
Reputation: 5605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
Did you find Ulster province on the map yet ?
The room is laughing at you, only you were dumb enough to read that wrong
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:46 PM
 
5,606 posts, read 3,479,220 times
Reputation: 7413
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
The room is laughing at you, only you were dumb enough to read that wrong
Keep digging ...
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:33 PM
 
7,873 posts, read 10,224,164 times
Reputation: 5605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roscoe Conkling View Post
Keep digging ...
Keep rolling around in it, you obviously enjoy it
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:50 PM
 
1,820 posts, read 1,152,135 times
Reputation: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by irish_bob View Post
Seeing as Northern Ireland is reliant on an annual "bung" as Mr Conkling puts it, perhaps the English tax payer might eventually come around to asking themselves if they wish to continue this transfer?

Northern Ireland will never be wealthy whilst part of the UK for the simple reason no British government needs it to be doing well in order to gain or hold on to power, as part of a united Ireland it would carry vastly more weight on a national basis.



From what I have read its not just BU which gets a ''bung'' there are other parts of England which doesn't pay its way. The north east region is one I remember and there were others. Apparently it is the south and midlands which contributes most.
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Old 03-11-2019, 03:57 PM
 
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,809 posts, read 34,427,591 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Let me say I appreciate the reasoned and thoughtful reply, as it was more than I expected to the question.

Let me answer the last question first.
Weren't many surprised just how many did vote for independence?
Obviously polling can be manipulated in various ways, as one needs look no further than Brexit or Americas 2016 presidential election to know that.
Still from what I understand Scotland came closer than most expected, and they had not been consistently demanding and fighting for independence like Ireland/NI has.

Also, and someone like English Dave can correct me, but I think the large number of Scots voting to leave rankled people, especially those in England who feel everyone is ungrateful, including the Irish.
Yet they all have greater representation than do the English themselves in their view. So why continue to pump money into these places and give them a greater say, while the average Englishmen cannot stand up for themselves in the same way.
Even the Welsh have a voice and can speak for their interests over the English.
Heck if I were English I might think the same thing myself, especially as it relates to NI. Who in their right mind would want to have to serve in the military, and potentially be hurt/killed just to try and hold onto land that the people were fighting and dying to get out of the UK.

The next point is related to you saying there has not been a clamoring for a united Ireland. While that might be accurate intermittently, many an article, documentary and politics has said otherwise (not to even bring the "Troubles" into it).
So the ebb and flow have always been there, but to the average mainland Brit, they probably became ambivalent to it, if ever they cared to begin with.
Out of sight, out of mind so to speak.

Now of course the Ulster Unionists know what I am talking about, as they feel like the red headed step child in all this. How can the majority of fellow Brits ignore the situation you'll essentially put us in over here, and just go about your daily lives.
They may hearken back to a day where they and the Irish got along better, and wish for a return of that "normalcy".
But that would also ignore the fact the Irish were being treated like 2nd class citizens on a good day in NI.
So when you hear the refrain "that the government has failed all sides", it gives one pause.

I did get a little long winded, but my initial thrust was related to why oppose such a vote if you and others think it would fail anyway.
Heck if it did pass, would that be better for mainland Brits anyway?


`
I wouldn't include polls on the 2016 election in this. The US polls were right, but didn't take the electoral college into account. This year they are changing the polls to give an overall number, but separate by state.
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Old 03-11-2019, 04:51 PM
 
16,166 posts, read 8,313,007 times
Reputation: 19065
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295 View Post
I wouldn't include polls on the 2016 election in this. The US polls were right, but didn't take the electoral college into account. This year they are changing the polls to give an overall number, but separate by state.
I am sorry to say you are mistaken, at least in part. Electoral College or not, polls showed Hillary with an insurmountable lead in both the "popular vote" (which of course does not exist), and the now laughed at "blue wall" in the Electoral College. The Democrats were so confident Hillary would win the EC, they actually hedged their bets, saying the EC was all that mattered. Thus if Trump won the "popular vote" (which some feared he would), it was irrelevant. Obviously just the opposite occurred and the blue wall fell like paper mache.
Brexit was no different, as at times it was mocked at having no chance.
Heck, this is not a new phenomenon by any means. Back in 1979 Carter was leading in every poll, and expected to wipe the floor with Reagan. Yet Reagan won in a landslide.
The point is that polls can be manipulated in various manners, some nefarious, others via incompetence.

People believe what they want in polls, especially if they back up their own strongly held beliefs. Thus whenever polls come out showing a united Ireland having no chance, some are vocal and say look at how unrealistic it is.
Yet when other polls have come out showing it is a possibility, those same people deride those polls as inaccurate, wrong sampling, etc.
So when a poster like Roscoe does not seem to think enough people would vote for NI to become part of Ireland, that is fine.
However, then why object or put roadblocks in the way for a vote to occur?


`
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