Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Still, that has nothing to do with traditional American home cooking, the food my mother and grandmother made and I still make. It is authentic and tasty, and is more diverse (and refined) that classic British food, which is simpler and often more pedestrian in its preparation and seasoning.
Could you at least tell us the names of many the dishes you would regularly eat? You repeat it a lot without giving anything tangible other than what it wasn't.
Every American family seems to have a completely different set of meals they eat at home - some go for mostly Mexican, some more Chinese, and my family (my American wife does the cooking) mostly eats a meal from a different part of the world every day.
Traditional everyday British food when I was growing up (beyond the specific dishes already mentioned) was different servings of vegetables and meats, rather than a specific dish. Boiled broccoli, baked potato, pork chop. Sausage and mash with peas and carrots. There aren't masses of specific sauces that might turn it into a specific dish, it was just food cooked separately (albeit in many different ways) and put on the same plate, to which we added our own sauces as we liked (Brown, ketchup, Worcester, etc). From what I can tell, this is pretty much the same as traditional American food, except for the veg and meat tends to be different.
@Roscoe and easthome: Again, you're describing American fast food. This is actually nothing but food from US "county fairs" of the early 20th century (cheap meats, soft drinks, fries/chips and other deep-fried stuff, ice-cream treats like milkshakes) -- eaten just once a year back then. Hamburgers, hot dogs, and French fries ("chips") went national only in the 1940s (my grandparents never ate them), and American families began eating them several times a year. This stuff was "industrialized" for mass consumption in the 1950s and early 1960s (McDonalds, BK, KFC, etc.) and by now it's spread throughout the world. I agree that it's not good and has led to the current obesity crisis here. Still, that has nothing to do with traditional American home cooking, the food my mother and grandmother made and I still make. It is authentic and tasty, and is more diverse (and refined) that classic British food, which is simpler and often more pedestrian in its preparation and seasoning.
You see you can't say that burgers, fries, hotdogs, pizza, etc. isn't traditional US in your experience, because if you say that I'm going to counter with my British experience, of Cordon Bleu, traditional Sicilian, and traditional Indian cuisines, Cantonese, Mandarin and Szechuan, Greek which were commonplace in my British tradition. Not everyone in the UK has that breadth in their taste palate, many have traditional Indian, and even if they don't they have Anglo-Indian fusion. Take Chicken Tikka Masala (invented Glasgow) seasoning ginger, garlic, cumin, coriander, tumeric, chili powder, coconut milk, Garam Masala (consisting of black and white peppercorns, cloves, cinnamon, nutmeg and mace, black and green cardamom, bay, cumin), that's just the sauce, for the tikka it requires garlic ginger, cloves, nutmeg, mace, cumin, coriander, fenugreek, cinnamon, black pepper, cardamom. Show me any US dish with a similar breadth of taste profile. If you want to discount it, then I'm going to counter and give you solely, well, not much really, because there isn't much in US tradition that isn't borrowed maybe cranberry jelly?
I think you're both including cuisines under the US "tradition" that are not US in origin, and discounting cuisines under the UK "tradition" that are not UK in origin to make that assertion (i.e. denying the advantage you're giving one from the other). Or you have no clue of traditional UK cuisine after around 1776 one of the two. The UK has a long and illustrious history of incorporating other cultural foods but retaining where they came from, or creating fusion yet preserving what it's fused with. Sure if you wish to compare pre-colony traditional British food with modern US you're going to win, but that's an apples to turnips comparison. Modern British tradition to modern US tradition which is more pedestrian, it's going to be US, because I can't believe some of the bland stodge Americans traditionally eat (and yes it's traditional).
For instance you've mentioned Irish cuisine has had more effect on US cuisine than British cuisine. Really, can you name four Irish specific dishes that are not existent in traditional British foods (or really close analogues)? Like Irish Stew, on the other side of the Irish sea that's known as Lamb or Mutton Stew, Irish just sounds more romantic.
@Roscoe and easthome: Again, you're describing American fast food. This is actually nothing but food from US "county fairs" of the early 20th century (cheap meats, soft drinks, fries/chips and other deep-fried stuff, ice-cream treats like milkshakes) -- eaten just once a year back then. Hamburgers, hot dogs, and French fries ("chips") went national only in the 1940s (my grandparents never ate them), and American families began eating them several times a year. This stuff was "industrialized" for mass consumption in the 1950s and early 1960s (McDonalds, BK, KFC, etc.) and by now it's spread throughout the world. I agree that it's not good and has led to the current obesity crisis here. Still, that has nothing to do with traditional American home cooking, the food my mother and grandmother made and I still make. It is authentic and tasty, and is more diverse (and refined) that classic British food, which is simpler and often more pedestrian in its preparation and seasoning.
You still haven't told me what these simple pedestrian traditional British dishes are? Like I said most people come out with this stuff but couldn't name 20 British recipes! Hamburgers, French fries from McDonalds is no more 'American' than a Vindaloo is British! All hail from elsewhere!
You see you can't say that burgers, fries, hotdogs, pizza, etc. isn't traditional US in your experience, because if you say that I'm going to counter with my British experience, of Cordon Bleu, traditional Sicilian, and traditional Indian cuisines, Cantonese, Mandarin and Szechuan, Greek which were commonplace in my British tradition. Not everyone in the UK has that breadth in their taste palate, many have traditional Indian, and even if they don't they have Anglo-Indian fusion. Take Chicken Tikka Masala (invented Glasgow) seasoning ginger, garlic, cumin, coriander, tumeric, chili powder, coconut milk, Garam Masala (consisting of black and white peppercorns, cloves, cinnamon, nutmeg and mace, black and green cardamom, bay, cumin), that's just the sauce, for the tikka it requires garlic ginger, cloves, nutmeg, mace, cumin, coriander, fenugreek, cinnamon, black pepper, cardamom. Show me any US dish with a similar breadth of taste profile. If you want to discount it, then I'm going to counter and give you solely, well, not much really, because there isn't much in US tradition that isn't borrowed maybe cranberry jelly?
I think you're both including cuisines under the US "tradition" that are not US in origin, and discounting cuisines under the UK "tradition" that are not UK in origin to make that assertion (i.e. denying the advantage you're giving one from the other). Or you have no clue of traditional UK cuisine after around 1776 one of the two. The UK has a long and illustrious history of incorporating other cultural foods but retaining where they came from, or creating fusion yet preserving what it's fused with. Sure if you wish to compare pre-colony traditional British food with modern US you're going to win, but that's an apples to turnips comparison. Modern British tradition to modern US tradition which is more pedestrian, it's going to be US, because I can't believe some of the bland stodge Americans traditionally eat (and yes it's traditional).
For instance you've mentioned Irish cuisine has had more effect on US cuisine than British cuisine. Really, can you name four Irish specific dishes that are not existent in traditional British foods (or really close analogues)? Like Irish Stew, on the other side of the Irish sea that's known as Lamb or Mutton Stew, Irish just sounds more romantic.
You folks are talking about foods of South Asian or other origin and calling them British. Yes, Britain was a colonial power and its colonial subjects (later, immigrants) brought many dishes to enrich the UK, and now Britain has all these things on regular menus. I know that. But I don't include those in my discussion, no more than I include lasagna, tacos, baked ziti, or Cantonese stir-fry as American food just because those have become part of American food culture.
I am referring to the indigenous cooking. Thus, I mean British fare like roast beef with Yorkshire pudding, steak and kidney pie, haggis, offal, boiled beef, bangers and mash, puddings (the beef suet confection), pasties, fish and chips, and condiments like Marmite and Bovril... with American standards like pot roast, grilled steak and trimmings, pork barbecue, turkey and dressing with Thanksgiving trimmings, scalloped potatoes, US regional cooking (Southern fried chicken, chicken and dumplings, shellfish; New England lobster tails; Pacific salmon or fresh grilled tuna; and California cooking). America is also the champion of fresh salads -- all kinds sweet and savory, vegetable or fruit, and they are becoming well-known even in France. In fact, recipes for American food appear regularly in the British press, including the Guardian and the Daily Mail (the American press rarely showcases any traditional British favorites in its pages at all). The continental European press also features American food articles (hardly ever British food, and I read the Euro press in 4 languages each day.) London might be the best dining city in the English-speaking world (besting New York), but London is the capital of Europe, it has 400,000 French residents alone, as well as many other new immigrants from across the continent and from its former colonies. Otherwise, the UK is less undeveloped. It has no culinary cities to equal New Orleans, San Francisco, San Antonio, or even Charleston or Savannah for their tasty culinary traditions. Sorry, but Liverpool, Manchester, and Southampton are not a match. And American desserts: Brownies, chocolate-chip cookies, and cupcakes are a hit around the world in the 21st century. The sweets-loving Brits have exported their products far more modestly than the Americans have (ex., English apple crumble, which is great, is now becoming popular on the continent, but what else is there?). America has pecan pie, peach cobbler, lemon meringue and Key lime pies, cheesecake. Its big breakfasts -- I mean the traditional large weekend breakfast -- do NOT have the same good-quality bacon that the British do (no contest, Brits win), but the sheer number of other items like pancakes and maple syrup, French toast, and other American breakfast items make up for it.
Look, I never said you can't eat well in Britain. I know you can, especially in London. I even adore fish and chips and bangers/mash. There are good cooks in Britain and bad ones in the States (and even non-cooks in the US) -- although the proliferation of British cooks on TV are all due to the Mr. Higgins (and sometimes Eliza Doolittle) accents, nothing else. America certainly has its share of rubbish food, too, including all the aforementioned cheap "fairground food" that became modern fast food, expertly marketed. And it has pedestrian dishes or worse-than-pedestrian like chipped beef on toast (of British origin, I'm told) and horrible green gelatin salad molds (America's downfall IMO). But given its short history and its heritage of German, Dutch, Native American, African American, and other contributions (all transformed and redeveloped into distinctly American form), I say its home cooking is vastly better prepared, more diverse, and tastier than traditional British food is.
Last edited by masonbauknight; 08-06-2015 at 06:17 PM..
You folks are talking about foods of South Asian or other origin and calling them British. Yes, Britain was a colonial power and its colonial subjects (later, immigrants) brought many dishes to enrich the UK, and now Britain has all these things on regular menus. I know that. But I don't include those in my discussion, no more than I include lasagna, tacos, baked ziti, or Cantonese stir-fry as American food just because those have become part of American food culture.
I am referring to the indigenous cooking. Thus, I mean British fare like roast beef with Yorkshire pudding, steak and kidney pie, haggis, offal, boiled beef, bangers and mash, puddings (the beef suet confection), pasties, fish and chips, and condiments like Marmite and Bovril...
However if you eliminate borrowed foods from American Cuisine in the way you do so for British, you have literally cranberry jelly to your name.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight
with American standards like pot roast, grilled steak and trimmings, pork barbecue, turkey and dressing with Thanksgiving trimmings, scalloped potatoes, US regional cooking (Southern fried chicken, chicken and dumplings, shellfish; New England lobster tails; Pacific salmon or fresh grilled tuna; and California cooking).
Let's break it down.
Pot Roast - French, Grilled Steak - Mediterranean/European, Barbecue - Caribbean, Turkey Roast - European (Roast Poultry), scalloped potatoes - French, Fried Chicken Scottish/African, Lobster has been eaten for centuries in Europe (in the US it really was peasant food with servants contracted to not have lobster more than twice a week), Salmon - Scottish, Tuna - Everywhere however I will inform you that of all tuna consumed in the US only 1% is fresh that doesn't make fresh tuna a traditional food regardless of cooking method, Californian cuisine is Mexican/American/Asian/Pacific Rim fusion, what did you think a California Roll was Japanese, or American?
Not an American origin dish in the lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight
America is also the champion of fresh salads -- all kinds sweet and savory, vegetable or fruit, and they are becoming well-known even in France. In fact, recipes for American food appear regularly in the British press, including the Guardian and the Daily Mail (the American press rarely showcases any traditional British favorites in its pages at all). The continental European press also features American food articles (hardly ever British food, and I read the Euro press in 4 languages each day.) London might be the best dining city in the English-speaking world (besting New York), but London is the capital of Europe, it has 400,000 French residents alone, as well as many other new immigrants from across the continent and from its former colonies. Otherwise, the UK is less undeveloped. It has no culinary cities to equal New Orleans, San Francisco, San Antonio, or even Charleston or Savannah for their tasty culinary traditions. Sorry, but Liverpool, Manchester, and Southampton are not a match.
Firstly as I'll show below you don't know what English cuisine is.
Secondly I think the French and Germans would take great exception to the claim that London is the Capital of Europe.
Finally I not expect Liverpool, Manchester or Southampton to be as significantly unique in cuisine as say Boston to Louisiana since Boston and Louisiana have entirely different cultures, and entirely different climates, for a fair comparison however how about we compare with the unique regional cuisines of say Washington to the UK, they're about the same size. Or compare with the unique regional cuisines of the entirety of New England, they're about the same population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight
And American desserts: Brownies, chocolate-chip cookies, and cupcakes are a hit around the world in the 21st century. The sweets-loving Brits have exported their products far more modestly than the Americans have (ex., English apple crumble, which is great, is now becoming popular on the continent, but what else is there?). America has pecan pie, peach cobbler, lemon meringue and Key lime pies, cheesecake.
Chocolate chip cookies are as original as saying cherry sponge cake is original from plain. It's a drop cookie/biscuit base which is not originally American, the addition of chocolate chips doesn't really make it a new recipe any more than saying Lasagne with American Cheddar is American, but Lasagne with Parmigiano is Italian. Cupcakes are a method, the cake going in is probably Poundcake which is identical to the 1615 recipe for Madeira cake (also Victoria Sponge) from the UK, so you're providing paper/foil cases for a British cake.
Pecan is disputed between the US and France (from New Orleans prior to the purchase) certainly the original base (prior to going corn syrup) is not American as it is similar to many European dessert pies (like English Custard Tart) with the exception of using Pecans and corn syrup as sweetening. Cobbler is from the UK, Lemon Meringue is from the UK (Victorian known as Lemon Chester Pudding) Key Lime is clearly merely a variant replacing lemon with Key Limes, Cheesecake has existed in Europe since the Romans, the first officially recognized recipe is from 1315 from... You guessed it England. Oh and Banoffee pie... you didn't mention it but I will, invented 1971 in the UK, the creators still have a $10,000 bounty for anyone who can prove pre-existence of it, no one has yet claimed it.
I will give you Brownies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight
Its big breakfasts -- I mean the traditional large weekend breakfast -- do NOT have the same good-quality bacon that the British do (no contest, Brits win), but the sheer number of other items like pancakes and maple syrup, French toast, and other American breakfast items make up for it.
None of the additions are American, Pancakes (US style) are German, Waffles are Belgian, Maple Syrup is Algonquin, French Toast again dates back to the Romans with some of the first official recipes being in English cookbooks. What other American breakfast items are there? Hashbrowns? Which are just a type of latke or potato pancake that exist in Poland, UK, Czech Republic, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland cookery prior to the claims made by Maria Parloa, and Rosti is pretty much exactly the same as typical Hash Browns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by masonbauknight
Look, I never said you can't eat well in Britain. I know you can, especially in London. I even adore fish and chips and bangers/mash. There are good cooks in Britain and bad ones in the States (and even non-cooks in the US) -- although the proliferation of British cooks on TV are all due to the Mr. Higgins (and sometimes Eliza Doolittle) accents, nothing else. America certainly has its share of rubbish food, too, including all the aforementioned cheap "fairground food" that became modern fast food, expertly marketed. And it has pedestrian dishes or worse-than-pedestrian like chipped beef on toast (of British origin, I'm told) and horrible green gelatin salad molds (America's downfall IMO). But given its short history and its heritage of German, Dutch, Native American, African American, and other contributions (all transformed and redeveloped into distinctly American form), I say its home cooking is vastly better prepared, more diverse, and tastier than traditional British food is.
SOS is completely a US invention, I don't know anyone in the UK who would even know what chipped beef is. You cannot eject burgers, fries, hotdogs from American traditional food either, because they are the most highly consumed and traditional, you don't get to pick what you consider is traditional American, either it is or is not traditional American, and there isn't a 4th of July Grill without burgers, potato salad, mac and cheese, coleslaw, fried chicken, hotdogs, that's looking pretty traditional to me.
However if you eliminate borrowed foods from American Cuisine in the way you do so for British, you have literally cranberry jelly to your name.
Let's break it down.
Pot Roast - French, Grilled Steak - Mediterranean/European, Barbecue - Caribbean, Turkey Roast - European (Roast Poultry), scalloped potatoes - French, Fried Chicken Scottish/African, Lobster has been eaten for centuries in Europe (in the US it really was peasant food with servants contracted to not have lobster more than twice a week), Salmon - Scottish, Tuna - Everywhere however I will inform you that of all tuna consumed in the US only 1% is fresh that doesn't make fresh tuna a traditional food regardless of cooking method, Californian cuisine is Mexican/American/Asian/Pacific Rim fusion, what did you think a California Roll was Japanese, or American?
Not an American origin dish in the lot.
Firstly as I'll show below you don't know what English cuisine is.
Secondly I think the French and Germans would take great exception to the claim that London is the Capital of Europe.
Finally I not expect Liverpool, Manchester or Southampton to be as significantly unique in cuisine as say Boston to Louisiana since Boston and Louisiana have entirely different cultures, and entirely different climates, for a fair comparison however how about we compare with the unique regional cuisines of say Washington to the UK, they're about the same size. Or compare with the unique regional cuisines of the entirety of New England, they're about the same population.
Chocolate chip cookies are as original as saying cherry sponge cake is original from plain. It's a drop cookie/biscuit base which is not originally American, the addition of chocolate chips doesn't really make it a new recipe any more than saying Lasagne with American Cheddar is American, but Lasagne with Parmigiano is Italian. Cupcakes are a method, the cake going in is probably Poundcake which is identical to the 1615 recipe for Madeira cake (also Victoria Sponge) from the UK, so you're providing paper/foil cases for a British cake.
Pecan is disputed between the US and France (from New Orleans prior to the purchase) certainly the original base (prior to going corn syrup) is not American as it is similar to many European dessert pies (like English Custard Tart) with the exception of using Pecans and corn syrup as sweetening. Cobbler is from the UK, Lemon Meringue is from the UK (Victorian known as Lemon Chester Pudding) Key Lime is clearly merely a variant replacing lemon with Key Limes, Cheesecake has existed in Europe since the Romans, the first officially recognized recipe is from 1315 from... You guessed it England. Oh and Banoffee pie... you didn't mention it but I will, invented 1971 in the UK, the creators still have a $10,000 bounty for anyone who can prove pre-existence of it, no one has yet claimed it.
I will give you Brownies.
None of the additions are American, Pancakes (US style) are German, Waffles are Belgian, Maple Syrup is Algonquin, French Toast again dates back to the Romans with some of the first official recipes being in English cookbooks. What other American breakfast items are there? Hashbrowns? Which are just a type of latke or potato pancake that exist in Poland, UK, Czech Republic, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland cookery prior to the claims made by Maria Parloa, and Rosti is pretty much exactly the same as typical Hash Browns.
SOS is completely a US invention, I don't know anyone in the UK who would even know what chipped beef is. You cannot eject burgers, fries, hotdogs from American traditional food either, because they are the most highly consumed and traditional, you don't get to pick what you consider is traditional American, either it is or is not traditional American, and there isn't a 4th of July Grill without burgers, potato salad, mac and cheese, coleslaw, fried chicken, hotdogs, that's looking pretty traditional to me.
I would agree with MBK in having a hard time calling Indian dishes "British" cooking.
People are using various criteria of origin to qualify or disqualify certain dishes for certain nationalities, but that is ultimately a pointless way of categorising these things. The concept of the "national" dish or recipe, or its converse, the concept of the "borrowed" food, is something that exists in a cultural mindset, is defined vaguely at best and often in a way that is arbitrary. It often has little association with when or how a dish was incorporated from an extra-cultural source.
@gungnir. Your post is a litany of a Eurocentric (even Anglocentric) talking points. Your basic premise, really, is one I have heard before: We have no culture in America, and everything an American can claim as his or hers was copied or "stolen", most especially from Britain. It's all rehashed Euro culture. I lived in Europe for three years, and there's no debating with that philosophy and it's a total waste of time. It will always be a philosophical brick wall, for there can be no real admission to any American culture (there's even no American English, but let's not go there). America is just a subculture or a non-culture or a no-culture. There's sometimes a bit of residual anti-Americanism mixed in with this, and that makes it all the more intractable at times. I heard this viewpoint when I was living in France, and I do read it occasionally in the British press -- most especially in the comments sections.
But I'll stick with American food: Yes, yes, the dishes I mentioned are indeed from early European immigration (where else would they come from?), but virtually all have been redeveloped and executed in American fashion. This is not a Vandaloo we're talking about, but totally American food with an American accent. That's also exactly how these recipes are treated in the world media by food writers (certainly in the four languages I read easily: English, French, Spanish and German). These dishes are called "American" and even referred to as "the classic American dish of--." They are never discussed in reductive or dismissive fashion along the lines of "Those bloody Yanks copied this from an old farmwife recipe in the Midlands, but it's really English," etc. etc.). On the contrary, the unique American-ness is the thing. And as I mentioned above, there are in fact very few British recipes at all in the European media, while there are *REGULAR* articles on American ways of food preparation. The food writers always mention their possible Euro origins, of course (repeat: NO ONE is disputing these European origins), but describe the factors that make the dish eminently American. That's part of the attraction of these dishes -- including those "simple" chocolate-chip cookies and brownies. Yes, the CC cookie is a simple drop cookie similar to its Germanic forebears; even the chocolate brownie, a simplistic preparation in several strokes at the kitchen counter, might be related to the Belgian fondant. (I take issue with your speculative history of pecan pie, as this is a pie, not a tart, and it has other origins besides French. The French do nut pastries and confections well, and I've enjoyed great nut bars from southwestern France when I studied in France, but pecan pie is a very American dessert with a unique buttery nut filling with a vinegar tang.)
Unfortunately, you and I -- and some other Anglo- and Eurocentrics on this thread -- seem to have a problem from the get-go about America's foodways. The old non-culture/no-culture argument, minimizing everything that has ever developed here as just a pastiche of European immigration, or even more mistaken: British immigration. The British gave us their language (though we now have our own distinctive usage and even our stylebooks are different), English common law, and certain British customs. But they did NOT give us our food. Europe did for the most part, and two centuries ago, but we remade it in our own image. We also invented new things with it: The cupcake is not just a little frosted cake -- the sheer variety of unique US cakes, frostings, and flavors are the reason there are cupcake shops in Amman, Jordan. Despite their short history, American food traditions have made their way to places like France and Jordan. No other English-speaking country comes close to the US in culinary exports. That goes for main dishes like barbecue (certainly beef or lamb, not pork, in Jordan) and confections like the brownie (a hit in France and Belgium).
Finally, I never said that hamburgers, hot dogs, and French fries/chips are not a big part of the food landscape here. But that has to be put into context. These are traditionally festive foods of the (turn-of-the-19th-century) county fairground and (only decades later) the Fourth of July celebration. These were not really standardized for mass consumption until rather recently. If some Americans have replaced their regular food with this stuff on a semi-permanent basis, that's their funeral, not mine. It still doesn't contradict my main point, which I hold to: America's home cooking is uniquely American. It is a reimagining of the food of its earlier European immigrants. It is not just a German Pfannkuchen or a basic French nut tart. One of the most attractive US cookbooks I've seen out there is "Martha Stewart's American Cooking." It covers the subject well, and the photos are enticing. And even it proves to me that American cooking is more refined, better prepared, and even more tasty (and certainly more "exportable") than most dishes considered part of the canon of traditional British cookery. Oops -- before I forget (and I smile as I write this): Most French and German people I've met do believe that London has become the default capital of Europe. Over and out.
Last edited by masonbauknight; 08-07-2015 at 10:30 AM..
@gungnir. Your post is a litany of a Eurocentric (even Anglocentric) talking points. Your basic premise, really, is one I have heard before: We have no culture in America, and everything an American can claim as his or hers was copied or "stolen", most especially from Britain. It's all rehashed Euro culture. I lived in Europe for three years, and there's no debating with that philosophy and it's a total waste of time. It will always be a philosophical brick wall, for there can be no real admission to any American culture (there's even no American English, but let's not go there). America is just a subculture or a non-culture or a no-culture. There's sometimes a bit of residual anti-Americanism mixed in with this, and that makes it all the more intractable at times. I heard this viewpoint when I was living in France, and I do read it occasionally in the British press -- most especially in the comments sections.
But I'll stick with American food: Yes, yes, the dishes I mentioned are indeed from early European immigration (where else would they come from?), but virtually all have been redeveloped and executed in American fashion. This is not a Vandaloo we're talking about, but totally American food with an American accent. That's also exactly how these recipes are treated in the world media by food writers (certainly in the four languages I read easily: English, French, Spanish and German). These dishes are called "American" and even referred to as "the classic American dish of--." They are never discussed in reductive or dismissive fashion along the lines of "Those bloody Yanks copied this from an old farmwife recipe in the Midlands, but it's really English," etc. etc.). On the contrary, the unique American-ness is the thing. And as I mentioned above, there are in fact very few British recipes at all in the European media, while there are *REGULAR* articles on American ways of food preparation. The food writers always mention their possible Euro origins, of course (repeat: NO ONE is disputing these European origins), but describe the factors that make the dish eminently American. That's part of the attraction of these dishes -- including those "simple" chocolate-chip cookies and brownies. Yes, the CC cookie is a simple drop cookie similar to its Germanic forebears; even the chocolate brownie, a simplistic preparation in several strokes at the kitchen counter, might be related to the Belgian fondant. (I take issue with your speculative history of pecan pie, as this is a pie, not a tart, and it has other origins besides French. The French do nut pastries and confections well, and I've enjoyed great nut bars from southwestern France when I studied in France, but pecan pie is a very American dessert with a unique buttery nut filling with a vinegar tang.)
Unfortunately, you and I -- and some other Anglo- and Eurocentrics on this thread -- seem to have a problem from the get-go about America's foodways. The old non-culture/no-culture argument, minimizing everything that has ever developed here as just a pastiche of European immigration, or even more mistaken: British immigration. The British gave us their language (though we now have our own distinctive usage and even our stylebooks are different), English common law, and certain British customs. But they did NOT give us our food. Europe did for the most part, and two centuries ago, but we remade it in our own image. We also invented new things with it: The cupcake is not just a little frosted cake -- the sheer variety of unique US cakes, frostings, and flavors are the reason there are cupcake shops in Amman, Jordan. Despite their short history, American food traditions have made their way to places like France and Jordan. No other English-speaking country comes close to the US in culinary exports. That goes for main dishes like barbecue (certainly beef or lamb, not pork, in Jordan) and confections like the brownie (a hit in France and Belgium).
Finally, I never said that hamburgers, hot dogs, and French fries/chips are not a big part of the food landscape here. But that has to be put into context. These are traditionally festive foods of the (turn-of-the-19th-century) county fairground and (only decades later) the Fourth of July celebration. These were not really standardized for mass consumption until rather recently. If some Americans have replaced their regular food with this stuff on a semi-permanent basis, that's their funeral, not mine. It still doesn't contradict my main point, which I hold to: America's home cooking is uniquely American. It is a reimagining of the food of its earlier European immigrants. It is not just a German Pfannkuchen or a basic French nut tart. One of the most attractive US cookbooks I've seen out there is "Martha Stewart's American Cooking." It covers the subject well, and the photos are enticing. And even it proves to me that American cooking is more refined, better prepared, and even more tasty (and certainly more "exportable") than most dishes considered part of the canon of traditional British cookery. Oops -- before I forget (and I smile as I write this): Most French and German people I've met do believe that London has become the default capital of Europe. Over and out.
I have to say I don't see any 'distinctive usage' with regards to the English language, I often hear Americans trying to lay claim to the English language but have yet to see any real differences apart from a bit of slang and a few differences in spelling!! What Americans , Australians, Canadians and people from New Zealand speak is still English like the English I'm afraid. :-)
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
