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im an outsider in sofar as i dont live in northern ireland but personally speaking i would not have a problem with the orange order parades provided they do not march down areas which are of the nationalist tradition as that is designed to be antagonistic , i fully believe in free speech and expression , i may be in the minority but i dont care that the loyalists in sink estates burn the tri colour , to me it shows weakness rather than strength and is not to be feared , burning a flag is not a capital offense in my book
its important however to make sure your football doesnt go over your neighbours fence , keep it on your own garden !
If only everybody in Ireland had your level headed view Bob, if they did they wouldn't feel the need for the (quite frankly) pointless marching in the first place, they wouldn't feel the need to the (quite frankly) pointless action of burning a flag and probably most importantly of all they wouldn't feel the need to harm each other either.
Britain introduced the Unionists into Ireland and also exploited them for their own means. It isn't rocket science. I don't blame the present day English (or British) but there has to be an acknowledgement of Britain's involvement. The British Government also accepted the blatant discrimination of Irish Catholics in NI because it suited their needs at the time. It is all very well ignoring that Britain control's Northern Ireland and blaming "the Irish".
I don't think the Irish want to take on NI but they don't want a hard border and this is in Britain's hands not the EU or Ireland. Remember the WTO would require a hard border between Britain and Ireland. Ireland wants NI to do well because it has a flow on effect in the Republic but I'm sure they are happy for it to stay as part of the UK. The UDA are clueless and in fact not in line with what the majority of Northern Irish want who voted to remain in the EU.
Anyway it looks like Britain will now remain in the Custom's Union which is not what Brexiters wanted but it is the best situation for Britain apart from being in the EU. I'm scratching my head at how people voted to leave the EU. It is not in their best interests and in a way it has ironically being of benefit having the NI border because otherwise Britain would have careened along with a hard Brexit which would have been disastrous for the British economy.
The best way to avoid conflict in NI is to have an open border. That is why the Irish have been lobbying Britain so hard for this. It is good for both Britain and Ireland.
No one wants NI to erupt in violence. It is a lot more stable these days and younger people want a better future with more opportunities.
IMO people are very myopic about the EU. Britain just doesn't have the influence it once had and benefit much more a part of a large trading block like the EU than going it alone.
Reading British papers a lot of the comments are full of nonsense and people don't appear to even understand the basics of Brexit and it's implications.
There has been an open border even during WW2. When the IRA was engaged in their murder campaign the border was not open for obvious reasons.
Discrimination has to be looked at in two ways. The Irish nationalists/republicans refused to play a part in the institutions of the country abstaining from parliament and castigating those Catholics who wished to play their part. Another point is that the Ulster government had to be careful who they employed. They had seen how Collins had his men inside Dublin Castle and passing him all the information needed in his campaign against the government.
The attitude of English Dave is to be expected and its nothing new. We have lived with that going away back. But there were others like Elgar,Kipling who supported Ulster's stance. When Carson got off the boat in England there were 150,000 people to welcome him. We make no claim on the 26 counties and its a pity the same attitude is not taken by those in Eire re the six counties.
im an outsider in sofar as i dont live in northern ireland but personally speaking i would not have a problem with the orange order parades provided they do not march down areas which are of the nationalist tradition as that is designed to be antagonistic , i fully believe in free speech and expression , i may be in the minority but i dont care that the loyalists in sink estates burn the tri colour , to me it shows weakness rather than strength and is not to be feared , burning a flag is not a capital offense in my book
its important however to make sure your football doesnt go over your neighbours fence , keep it on your own garden !
And of course the Union Flag is burned in nationalist sink estates. Agree about parades and I think that is what is happening. The problem was where they paraded were at one time unionist areas but have being taken over by nationalists. I don't know of one area where the opposite has happened.
Then of course we have inter-face areas where one side of the road is nationalist and the other side is unionist. Ardoyne is an example of this. But will point out that on the nationalist side there are no houses ( there are on the unionist side). There are a row of shops on the nationalist side and the nationalist people live behind these shops. If there is a parade they come out from behind the shops to get offended. However, recently there has been some agreement reached.
And of course the Union Flag is burned in nationalist sink estates. Agree about parades and I think that is what is happening. The problem was where they paraded were at one time unionist areas but have being taken over by nationalists. I don't know of one area where the opposite has happened.
Then of course we have inter-face areas where one side of the road is nationalist and the other side is unionist. Ardoyne is an example of this. But will point out that on the nationalist side there are no houses ( there are on the unionist side). There are a row of shops on the nationalist side and the nationalist people live behind these shops. If there is a parade they come out from behind the shops to get offended. However, recently there has been some agreement reached.
anyone who needs to denigrate someone elses culture in order to boost their own is not someone i would envy too much , sounds like they havent much good going on in their lives
the reformation was a liberation for a lot of people in europe but it made absolute sense why some countries remained catholic and others did not , history is funny that way , celebrating the reformation is not a problem for me and i think thats what the 12th is broadly speaking , the battle of the boyne was a localised event as part of the broader reformation , i didnt grow up in northern ireland however so im not in a position to fully appreciate the 12 th of july event for either side
i think the paranoia about catholicism from unionists is not to be taken seriously in 2017 however , it has zero basis in reality today
I think I read somewhere that the British parliament has to agree to the final agreement. I hope they will reject it.
So far nothing that was important in the Brexit vote has been achieved:
EU laws continue in place, actually Britain has to implement new EU laws made during the transition period, laws Britain has no influence on anymore.
Britain continues to pay EU bills without benefiting from whatever it is paying for.
Britain's borders basically continue open to the EU.
May is a total failure. Thatcher would not have put up with that.
Parliament does have a vote on the final deal but only whether to accept it or leave without any deal at all.
That moment passed when it voted,by a huge majority including most Labour MPs,to trigger Article 50.
Parliament does have a vote on the final deal but only whether to accept it or leave without any deal at all.
That moment passed when it voted,by a huge majority including most Labour MPs,to trigger Article 50.
I think I read something different, namely that parliament still has the final say and can reject the final deal.
And I hope they will do that. This way Britain could already broker trade agreements with China, the US etc. that would be finalized as soon as the hard Brexit is through. With the current agreement Britain is not allowed to make any such agreements for years to come, which is unacceptable unless Britain is full access to the EU market, which is unlikely.
Nor would I sigh any deal that doesn't have a clause that allows the cancellation of the agreement.
The question now is, do Brits have a backbone or are they weaklings?
I think I read something different, namely that parliament still has the final say and can reject the final deal.
And I hope they will do that. This way Britain could already broker trade agreements with China, the US etc. that would be finalized as soon as the hard Brexit is through. With the current agreement Britain is not allowed to make any such agreements for years to come, which is unacceptable unless Britain is full access to the EU market, which is unlikely.
Nor would I sigh any deal that doesn't have a clause that allows the cancellation of the agreement.
The question now is, do Brits have a backbone or are they weaklings?
The people have backbone....... politicians not so much. Too busy thinking about themselves, and their future political careers. Plenty of cushy jobs to be had in the EU........ ask Neil Kinnock and his wife.
Britain could already broker trade agreements with China, the US etc. that would be finalized as soon as the hard Brexit is through. With the current agreement Britain is not allowed to make any such agreements for years to come, which is unacceptable unless Britain is full access to the EU market, which is unlikely.
Nor would I sigh any deal that doesn't have a clause that allows the cancellation of the agreement.
I understand that both the EU and the UK government are considering a trade deal similar to CETA. CETA might serve as a rough approximation that a working group could plan with.
anyone who needs to denigrate someone elses culture in order to boost their own is not someone i would envy too much , sounds like they havent much good going on in their lives
the reformation was a liberation for a lot of people in europe but it made absolute sense why some countries remained catholic and others did not , history is funny that way , celebrating the reformation is not a problem for me and i think thats what the 12th is broadly speaking , the battle of the boyne was a localised event as part of the broader reformation , i didnt grow up in northern ireland however so im not in a position to fully appreciate the 12 th of july event for either side
i think the paranoia about catholicism from unionists is not to be taken seriously in 2017 however , it has zero basis in reality today
Its a live history for those living in Ulster. Yes, to many outside it has passed its 'sell by' date but there is no threat on mainland Britain. Scotland have not launched a campaign of murder and mayhem in England in order to achieve independence. What would be the situation in England if this had happened? How would English people feel ? I only give Scotland-England as an example of what could have happened if Scotland had taken the same road as Irish republicans
The massacre of Protestants in 1641 and again their suffering in 1689,1798 etc and the more recent happenings have left them (as some say) with a 'siege mentality'. I would say you develop a siege mentality because you are constantly under siege and that is still the case today. We are not interested in taking over the 26 counties or even the 3 lost counties of Ulster. Its just a pity the Irish people had not took the same attitude.
The parades perhaps give them a feeling (maybe false) of being secure. That everything is alright and they have each other to rely on.
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