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Old 12-23-2017, 03:53 PM
 
1,820 posts, read 1,153,611 times
Reputation: 801

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And then again there was another way to look at it.


Ireland on the eve of the 1916 Rising was not a poor, oppressed or downtrodden country. On the contrary, the Act of Union in 1801 had incorporated a society of retarded development into the most advanced country in the world.

The Union transformed Irish society through the adaptation of British administrative solutions to Irish conditions and far-reaching state intervention in a wide range of areas, notably public health, education, the land question and economic development. For example, with respect to public health, in 1805 the Government created dispensaries for the sick in each county and in 1819 sanitary officers were appointed to supervise and inspect the lunatic asylums, which had been set up in 1817. With respect to education, in 1831 the [Irish]National Board of Education set up a system of primary schools decades before England could boast the same and in 1845 the Government built and endowed three university colleges.

From the mid-nineteenth century onwards, Government legislated to protect tenants and also to promote, with public financial assistance, the distribution of land among occupiers.

Government intervention was widespread and frequently welcome. In 1846 Friedrich Engels, after a visit to Ireland, substantiated the first point when he noted, “The Government meddles with everything.” And Robert Peel substantiated the second by observing in 1814, “There is a disposition in Ireland to refer everything to Government.” He added, “I think the majority have the same idea of Government which the natives are said to have of the East India Company.” In other words, there was an in-built preference for a paternalist approach to Government. The Union inaugurated a national uniformity previously unknown and laid the foundations, political and administrative, of modern Ireland, north and south.

By the beginning of the twentieth century Ireland was actually a rich country – one of the richest in Europe. Income per head was on a par with the Scandinavian countries of Norway, Sweden and Finland. Yet 70 years after the Rising in 1986, Irish income per head was half that of the Scandinavians. Two out of three people born in the twenty-six county state in the 1930s – ‘the first real generation of the new State’ – ended up living abroad, usually in England. This scarcely constitutes a ringing endorsement of Irish independence.

In his budget of 1924 Ernest Blythe, the Irish Free State’s finance minister, notoriously reduced old age pensions from ten shillings a week to nine shillings a week. Why did he do so? In 1909 John Redmond, the nationalist leader, denounced old age pensions as ‘an extravagance that would not have been indulged in by an Irish [Home Rule] parliament’. On the eve of independence, the Exchequer in London subsidised Irish pensions to the tune of £4 million, three-quarters of which went to the twenty-six counties which constituted the Irish Free State. Without the British subvention, Blythe was obliged to confront the painful reality that the cost of the British standard of pension provision was too great for the Free State to bear.

Unhappily for the people of the twenty-six counties, they left the United Kingdom at a point at which the advantages of being part of the United Kingdom were becoming even greater. As Professor David McWilliams of Trinity College, Dublin, one of Ireland’s leading economic commentators and the first economist to identify the Irish boom as nothing more than a credit bubble, has quite rightly pointed out, “The heroes of 1916 were economically clueless” and the people of the twenty-six counties paid for their economic illiteracy.

 
Old 12-23-2017, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Earth
7,646 posts, read 6,415,429 times
Reputation: 5828
George washington and gandhi both wanted to be englishmen. They were not allowed representation in parliament.

The UK did not give home rule to ireland, the potato famine did not help, and it was not smart on using rebellious irishmen for WW1. They came back trained for war. Irish like to fight.

Communication and travel time is a long time to the UK even in the age of the internet. All politics are local.

The empire was based on exploitation of resources and selling manufactured goods back to the colonies.

I think today, you still need to reform the government:

1. replace the house of lords with a voted in senate.
2. each country within the UK should have its on state parliament.
3. London should be turned into washington DC and act as a federal parliament for the whole UK. A state capital should be created in England probably the english rust belt so they get some money and jobs.
4. Create a written constitution!
5. Create the irish sea tunnel to connect the passenger rail from UK to ireland.
6. If the UK becomes a secular republic, then ireland should join the secular united republic. Ireland cannot defend its airspace from russian aircraft and relies on the UK. It should be in NATO.
7. Switch the side of the road you drive on. Its annoying for the tourist and would save on the accidents.
 
Old 12-24-2017, 02:14 AM
 
Location: England.
1,288 posts, read 3,312,014 times
Reputation: 1293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
5. Create the irish sea tunnel to connect the passenger rail from UK to ireland.
Never ever going to happen. Too expensive to link a major economy to a small one, with little financial return. The channel tunnel links two of Europe's biggest economies and capital cities and is only just beginning to pay for itself. Once Brexit kicks in the Irunnel will become an even more distant fantasy project.
 
Old 12-24-2017, 02:58 AM
 
31,600 posts, read 26,449,195 times
Reputation: 24423
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBAinTexas View Post
The Suez Crisis and the failure of Sir Anthony Eden? The Parliament? The Queen?
As noted, empires come and go; Rome, Russia, France, Spain, then Britain and so it goes.


Truth to tell things had already begun coming apart for the British Empire pre-WWI. Things only got worse during the "between the war" years, and finally WWII put an end to things.


By the end of WWII GB was broke and worse her much heralded navy which had given her mastery of the seas for hundreds of years (and by extension built and sustained an empire) was kaput. Into that breech came the only "superpower" largely still standing intact; the United States.


Take also into consideration the waves of nationalism unleashed by the French Revolution never truly died out. India, South Africa, Hong Kong, etc... people wanted to be out from under British rule and have self governance.


Building/creating an empire is an expensive enough undertaking, but maintaining one is equally as costly. It requires legions of functionaries to create/enforce laws, taxes, etc... You also need a vast and capable navy and other military not only to defend your far flung colonies from others, but to police things and keep a lid on coups, revolutions and so forth.


Now it could be argued that Britain like Spain, France and others before her got more than what they spent on the above military and other services from the wealth that was *ahem* extracted from their colonies. The Crown and a good number of its subjects grew very rich off India and South Africa, but in that process sowed the seeds for a time when eventually the British would be forced out.
 
Old 12-24-2017, 04:12 AM
 
7,873 posts, read 10,227,259 times
Reputation: 5605
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulsterman View Post
And then again there was another way to look at it.


Ireland on the eve of the 1916 Rising was not a poor, oppressed or downtrodden country. On the contrary, the Act of Union in 1801 had incorporated a society of retarded development into the most advanced country in the world.

The Union transformed Irish society through the adaptation of British administrative solutions to Irish conditions and far-reaching state intervention in a wide range of areas, notably public health, education, the land question and economic development. For example, with respect to public health, in 1805 the Government created dispensaries for the sick in each county and in 1819 sanitary officers were appointed to supervise and inspect the lunatic asylums, which had been set up in 1817. With respect to education, in 1831 the [Irish]National Board of Education set up a system of primary schools decades before England could boast the same and in 1845 the Government built and endowed three university colleges.

From the mid-nineteenth century onwards, Government legislated to protect tenants and also to promote, with public financial assistance, the distribution of land among occupiers.

Government intervention was widespread and frequently welcome. In 1846 Friedrich Engels, after a visit to Ireland, substantiated the first point when he noted, “The Government meddles with everything.” And Robert Peel substantiated the second by observing in 1814, “There is a disposition in Ireland to refer everything to Government.” He added, “I think the majority have the same idea of Government which the natives are said to have of the East India Company.” In other words, there was an in-built preference for a paternalist approach to Government. The Union inaugurated a national uniformity previously unknown and laid the foundations, political and administrative, of modern Ireland, north and south.

By the beginning of the twentieth century Ireland was actually a rich country – one of the richest in Europe. Income per head was on a par with the Scandinavian countries of Norway, Sweden and Finland. Yet 70 years after the Rising in 1986, Irish income per head was half that of the Scandinavians. Two out of three people born in the twenty-six county state in the 1930s – ‘the first real generation of the new State’ – ended up living abroad, usually in England. This scarcely constitutes a ringing endorsement of Irish independence.

In his budget of 1924 Ernest Blythe, the Irish Free State’s finance minister, notoriously reduced old age pensions from ten shillings a week to nine shillings a week. Why did he do so? In 1909 John Redmond, the nationalist leader, denounced old age pensions as ‘an extravagance that would not have been indulged in by an Irish [Home Rule] parliament’. On the eve of independence, the Exchequer in London subsidised Irish pensions to the tune of £4 million, three-quarters of which went to the twenty-six counties which constituted the Irish Free State. Without the British subvention, Blythe was obliged to confront the painful reality that the cost of the British standard of pension provision was too great for the Free State to bear.

Unhappily for the people of the twenty-six counties, they left the United Kingdom at a point at which the advantages of being part of the United Kingdom were becoming even greater. As Professor David McWilliams of Trinity College, Dublin, one of Ireland’s leading economic commentators and the first economist to identify the Irish boom as nothing more than a credit bubble, has quite rightly pointed out, “The heroes of 1916 were economically clueless” and the people of the twenty-six counties paid for their economic illiteracy.

speaking of david mc williams

happy christmas

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/o...-35865222.html
 
Old 12-24-2017, 04:27 AM
 
Location: SE UK
14,808 posts, read 11,885,313 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
George washington and gandhi both wanted to be englishmen. They were not allowed representation in parliament.

The UK did not give home rule to ireland, the potato famine did not help, and it was not smart on using rebellious irishmen for WW1. They came back trained for war. Irish like to fight.

Communication and travel time is a long time to the UK even in the age of the internet. All politics are local.

The empire was based on exploitation of resources and selling manufactured goods back to the colonies.

I think today, you still need to reform the government:

1. replace the house of lords with a voted in senate.
2. each country within the UK should have its on state parliament.
3. London should be turned into washington DC and act as a federal parliament for the whole UK. A state capital should be created in England probably the english rust belt so they get some money and jobs.
4. Create a written constitution!
5. Create the irish sea tunnel to connect the passenger rail from UK to ireland.
6. If the UK becomes a secular republic, then ireland should join the secular united republic. Ireland cannot defend its airspace from russian aircraft and relies on the UK. It should be in NATO.
7. Switch the side of the road you drive on. Its annoying for the tourist and would save on the accidents.
You think 'switching the side of the road we drive on' will save on accidents, I think it will have the opposite effect, I know how about you guys switch sides? After all driving on the left makes much more sense.
 
Old 12-24-2017, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Earth
7,646 posts, read 6,415,429 times
Reputation: 5828
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hengist View Post
Never ever going to happen. Too expensive to link a major economy to a small one, with little financial return. The channel tunnel links two of Europe's biggest economies and capital cities and is only just beginning to pay for itself. Once Brexit kicks in the Irunnel will become an even more distant fantasy project.
Scotland and northen ireland will be connected. These are two british territories. Should have gotten the EU to pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
You think 'switching the side of the road we drive on' will save on accidents, I think it will have the opposite effect, I know how about you guys switch sides? After all driving on the left makes much more sense.
Well, its just more convenient for the rest us. The rest of world has sacrificed their culture and speak the english language. The UK should conform to north american and continental european driving sides.
 
Old 12-24-2017, 05:24 PM
 
Location: England.
1,288 posts, read 3,312,014 times
Reputation: 1293
If this site linked doesn't support the idea of a tunnel to Ireland, it really will never happen for the many reasons listed.

Irish Sea Tunnel - The Irunnel? - SkyscraperCity
 
Old 12-25-2017, 12:10 PM
 
Location: SE UK
14,808 posts, read 11,885,313 times
Reputation: 9789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerous-Boy View Post
Scotland and northen ireland will be connected. These are two british territories. Should have gotten the EU to pay for it.



Well, its just more convenient for the rest us. The rest of world has sacrificed their culture and speak the english language. The UK should conform to north american and continental european driving sides.
Nope as you reckon you have all sacrificed your culture to speak English (don't believe that's true for a minute though) then you may as well go the full hog and drive on the correct side of the road too!
 
Old 12-25-2017, 07:13 PM
 
Location: Earth
7,646 posts, read 6,415,429 times
Reputation: 5828
Quote:
Originally Posted by easthome View Post
Nope as you reckon you have all sacrificed your culture to speak English (don't believe that's true for a minute though) then you may as well go the full hog and drive on the correct side of the road too!
I refuse! You will conform!
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