U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 04-18-2012, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
16,394 posts, read 8,905,375 times
Reputation: 5662
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
There doesn't seem to be much basis for comparison then, is there? Koreatown is not average LA and it offers a lot more than Haddington for walkers, mass transit users, and drivers alike. Why would you choose to use the hood for comparison? So the hoods of Philly don't square well with a vibrant neighborhood in LA--and? Also, it wasn't just yelp, I went through google streetview trying to find things along the main arterial roads through the neighborhood, and it doesn't look too promising.
No. The point was to show that Philadelphia has a street culture (even in the bombed out areas). Los Angeles has a car culture (even in its most urban neighborhoods). Philadelphia's urban design, even in distant less vibrant neighborhoods such as Haddington, is configured in a very walkable, dense fashion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
16,394 posts, read 8,905,375 times
Reputation: 5662
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
You do all the time--it's just that they aren't labelled as LA. LA's been a stand-in for probably every major urban city in the US. However, as a cultural short-hand, when filmmakers want to depict LA they depict detached houses, wide streets and palm trees. And the beach and giant bouncing breasts in the ocean breeze. However, that's definitely not all of LA--just what is cultural shorthand.
You could shoot a video in Houston with people walking around. I'm talking about a video actually depicting a very public, active street life.


The Roots - How I Got Over - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:07 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,056 posts, read 9,391,480 times
Reputation: 4747
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It is the core. That's why I didn't want to use it. To put Koreatown and its strip malls and parking lots up against Rittenhouse and its completely built up environment is not any fun. That's a very lopsided victory in favor of Rittenhouse. So instead I decided to use a distant, raggedy West Philly neighborhood (Haddington) to compare against the best urbanity LA has to offer. And in the videos I posted, you see a pedestrian-oriented street culture even in the distant parts of West Philly (people walking to the barbershop, walking to grab a hoagie, walking to the corner store, hanging out on corners, walking to the El, etc.).
A music video is scripted--I work/ed in music videos and you have these people on stand-by to come into frame (though not all of them in your video are scripted). You can't just have empty streets unless that's what you were going for. Meanwhile, the other video was just randomly holding up a camera in static shots during what looked like midday midweek (people at work) and it still had at least a few random people coming in and out of an auto-busy intersection where the camera was pointed directly at the wide intersection of car streets rather than down a sidewalk.

Also, if you want to compare the bougie core, why don't you choose bougie core areas in LA? Parts of Hollywood, WeHo, Santa Monica, and downtown probably can count. Ktown is an ethnic enclave--a really vibrant one, but not the bougie yuppie neighborhood you seem to think it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
Rittenhouse vs. Koreatown is way more fair than Koreatown vs. Haddington

Rittenhouse has way more listings for restaurants (761) on Yelp than Koreatown (481), but then again it is in downtown Philly:

Groceries Philadelphia

Comparing Rittenhouse Square (761) vs. LA's version (Historic Core) (942)

Yelp | Search Businesses In Los Angeles
Actually, that's a surprise to me, too. Maybe Historic Core is a much bigger area (nevermind, I see you did within 1 mile walking distance)? I figured Center City is where Philly absolutely beats out most cities, but that Center City is fairly tiny with relatively few attractions in the rest of Philadelphia and its metro. Did downtown just sprout a crapload of new stuff since November?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
16,394 posts, read 8,905,375 times
Reputation: 5662
More videos of average, non-core Philadelphia.


Musiq - Halfcrazy - YouTube


Jill Scott "Gettin' In The Way" - YouTube
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Pasadena, CA
8,856 posts, read 5,280,508 times
Reputation: 2793
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
A music video is scripted--I work/ed in music videos and you have these people on stand-by to come into frame (though not all of them in your video are scripted). You can't just have empty streets unless that's what you were going for. Meanwhile, the other video was just randomly holding up a camera in static shots during what looked like midday midweek (people at work) and it still had at least a few random people coming in and out of an auto-busy intersection where the camera was pointed directly at the wide intersection of car streets rather than down a sidewalk.

Also, if you want to compare the bougie core, why don't you choose bougie core areas in LA? Parts of Hollywood, WeHo, Santa Monica, and downtown probably can count. Ktown is an ethnic enclave--a really vibrant one, but not the bougie yuppie neighborhood you seem to think it is.
West Hollywood or Los Feliz are probably your best bets for walkable, bougie neighborhoods in LA. Los Feliz is also fairly transit-rich (Weho, to their chagrin, not so much).

A lot of Beverly Hills is also surprisingly walkable, though the car-culture (materialism-culture) is very strong in that neck of the woods.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,056 posts, read 9,391,480 times
Reputation: 4747
Quote:
Originally Posted by munchitup View Post
West Hollywood or Los Feliz are probably your best bets for walkable, bougie neighborhoods in LA. Los Feliz is also fairly transit-rich (Weho, to their chagrin, not so much).

A lot of Beverly Hills is also surprisingly walkable, though the car-culture (materialism-culture) is very strong in that neck of the woods.
downtown parts of Culver City, Venice Beach (unfortunately), and parts of Santa Monica as well). For super bougie, you can go to Pasadena/South Pasadena.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
16,394 posts, read 8,905,375 times
Reputation: 5662
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
A music video is scripted--I work/ed in music videos and you have these people on stand-by to come into frame (though not all of them in your video are scripted). You can't just have empty streets unless that's what you were going for. Meanwhile, the other video was just randomly holding up a camera in static shots during what looked like midday midweek (people at work) and it still had at least a few random people coming in and out of an auto-busy intersection where the camera was pointed directly at the wide intersection of car streets rather than down a sidewalk.
So let me get this straight.

There are hardly any videos depicting LA pedestrian life because producers would rather shoot vides of guys driving around in cars (i.e., "Let Me Ride" by Dr. Dre). It's not because LA's urban design is not conducive to pedestrian life.

People in LA drive because they're not aware of its wonderfully extensive public transit system. And they also drive because LA has a car culture. It's not because the city's urban design does not easily lend itself to public transit, as stated by Donald Shoup and Eric Eidlin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
Also, if you want to compare the bougie core, why don't you choose bougie core areas in LA? Parts of Hollywood, WeHo, Santa Monica, and downtown probably can count. Ktown is an ethnic enclave--a really vibrant one, but not the bougie yuppie neighborhood you seem to think it is.
Because the comparison is not even close.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:16 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,056 posts, read 9,391,480 times
Reputation: 4747
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
More videos of average, non-core Philadelphia.


Musiq - Halfcrazy - YouTube


Jill Scott "Gettin' In The Way" - YouTube
This makes me wonder if there are a bunch of norteno, rock en espanol or mariachi music videos of urban parts of LA. Anyone big on spanish language music videos from Mexico and Central America care to chime in?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
16,394 posts, read 8,905,375 times
Reputation: 5662
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
This makes me wonder if there are a bunch of norteno, rock en espanol or mariachi music videos of urban parts of LA. Anyone big on spanish language music videos from Mexico and Central America care to chime in?
I'm sure there are lots of videos with guys driving around in cars. As Eidlin put it...

Quote:
Los Angeles exhibits a comparatively even distribution of population throughout its urbanized area. As a result, the city suffers from many consequences of high population density, including extreme traffic congestion, poor air quality, and high housing prices, while offering its residents few benefits that typically accompany this density, including fast and effective public transit, vibrant street life, and tightly knit urban neighborhoods.
You could simply call him a crank, but I think a respected urban planner's opinion that LA lacks a "vibrant street life" should be taken seriously.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2012, 10:25 AM
 
Location: In the heights
11,056 posts, read 9,391,480 times
Reputation: 4747
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
So let me get this straight.

There are hardly any videos depicting LA pedestrian life because producers would rather shoot vides of guys driving around in cars (i.e., "Let Me Ride" by Dr. Dre). It's not because LA's urban design is not conducive to pedestrian life.

People in LA drive because they're not aware of its wonderfully extensive public transit system. And they also drive because LA has a car culture. It's not because the city's urban design does not easily lend itself to public transit, as stated by Donald Shoup and Eric Eidlin.



Because the comparison is not even close.
No, you've seen a bunch of music videos and films with LA pedestrian life--they just aren't labelled as LA. Although, those are usually faked with scripted activity.

Here, try to keep in mind everything that's been discussed.

- LA's greater urbanization/walkability is a very recent affair, because previously the core was heavily neglected and almost zoned out of residential existence

- For those few that did end up living in urban areas of the city, many of those were recent East Asian, Southeast Asian, Mexican, and Central American immigrants (some of them illegal, so fairly under the radar) who have surprisingly (actually not surprising at all) little discourse in the national media / culture

- Even then, most of LA is dense suburban sprawl so it is what most visitors AND residents have in their mind when they think of LA because how would they know any better

- There is an identification issue because you will be unlikely to have south jerseyites or maybe even those in bordering PA counties push themselves as being from Philadelphia whereas much of LA's surrounding suburban bits simply say they are from and identify with LA

To your point, Dr. Dre is not from a traditionally urban part of LA--that is true for a lot of people and it's true for Dre as well.

You've already pointed out that you don't actually know LA very well. You went in 2009 and I don't see any hint of having been taken to what are considered the more urban areas. I don't even know if you've tried the mass transit system at all.

Meanwhile, people who actually do live or have lived carfree in LA who know the city far better than you are telling you otherwise--including people who have visited or lived in what are considered very urban cities (I've mostly been in NYC for a good four years now with frequent trips to Philly and LA). You bring up a lot of articles, but these are talking about LA as a whole. Eidlin's stats are usually citing something much more than just the parts I'm talking about. Shoup is doing a call to arms to get LA to change (as well he should, because the guy lives there and wants positive change).

GO TO LA and try out what you can actually get to without a car when you stay in one of the core dense areas. You will have more to talk about. Right now, it feels like you're dropping one factor or another for every point you want to push. The discussion wouldn't have to circle around to the same points if you actually went and tried to experience this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Urban Planning

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:26 AM.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top