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Will it blow your mind that I've walked to strip malls several dozens if not hundreds of times in my life, and I found it no more difficult than walking to the retail strips while in various parts of West Philly (generally within "University City")? Actually, in winter, it was a hell of a lot easier and generally had much better food and a greater variety of groceries.
Yeah, it's not like strip malls are like a Taco Bell drive through where you're not allowed to walk up and order. Again, if it's around the corner from you... why not walk to it?
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I think we need to understand that strip malls in LA can be really varied in what they offer (as in very little in chains), sometimes be double or triple-decked to provide a large concentration of goods, have parking lots that are relatively minuscule, and often just around the corner from a row of apartment buildings. Also, during non-peak times some parking lots turn into food truck courts or in some places swap meets/farmer's markets.
A good example of this would be Maxella Drive in Marina Del Rey:
On the North Side of the street, you have a 2-story strip mall with underground parking. There are also a few shops underground next to the parking - a shoe repair place, a cleaners, a supermarket, and IIRC a couple others. On the south side, you have a larger outdoor shopping center that's mostly one story, but has an excellent Indian place, one of the best Japanese places you'll ever set foot in according to many Japanese expats I know, movie theatres, etc.
A lot of people walk from the surrounding environs, or take a bus there.
[quite]Functionally, LA does pedestrian alright for some parts of it. Little hope for the really suburban parts though. Unless they start turning the houses in cul-de-sacs into gardens slash retail courts for the neighboring houses. Which would be funny. Yea, I think I'd enjoy that.[/quote]
Yeah, North Hollywood and Garden Grove have a ways to cover, but most of the rest of LA is doin' alright
It's really amazing to me how there's a (small) contingent of people who refuse to believe that American culture can exist outside of a Northeastern context. What do they think that strip malls or shopping centers (not malls, but, small shopping/office parks) contain?
Are they supposed to just be empty or something?
Is there a particular reason that people who live in the apartments or houses around the corner can't walk to them and have to drive?
Oh yes! Three parking spots length of asphalt in the tiny LA neighborhood strip mall is way too dangerous to walk across!!
For New Yorkers its like a vampire crossing a river!
Will it blow your mind that I've walked to strip malls several dozens if not hundreds of times in my life,
Not really. I've seen a few people doing it in Arlington and Fairfax County, Virginia, which has roads (and strip malls) similar to what you see in LA.
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I found it no more difficult than walking to the retail strips while in various parts of West Philly (generally within "University City")? Actually, in winter, it was a hell of a lot easier and generally had much better food and a greater variety of groceries.
Well, that's your experience. I can't say that I'd really ever be inclined to walk anywhere in LA. It's too spread out, the traffic is too fast, and the roads are too wide.
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Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
I think we need to understand that strip malls in LA can be really varied in what they offer (as in very little in chains), sometimes be double or triple-decked to provide a large concentration of goods, have parking lots that are relatively minuscule, and often just around the corner from a row of apartment buildings. Also, during non-peak times some parking lots turn into food truck courts or in some places swap meets/farmer's markets.
I don't doubt this. But we're talking about urban design. And from an urban design standpoint, they are wasteful of land, and prevent continuity in the city's urban fabric.
I don't mean in theory. I mean in practice. As in a practice that I and many other people have done.
Perhaps the video doesn't show Koreatown at its peak. But there's a drive-thru restaurant right there at the corner. Again, that's not something you see in central DC, Chicago, etc. To be LA's densest neighborhood, I would expect to see many more people out and about.
You don't live here and you've already assigned LA a "suburban sprawl" title in your mind, so on the first account, you can't see it because you aren't here and aren't travelling out here any time soon (AFAIK naturally), and on the second accord, you're only looking for data and anecdotes to back up your argument while ignoring the real-life input of people who live here.
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You just don't see this type of auto-centrism in Boston, Philly, DC or NYC.
No, you don't, but those cities are not LA.
Again, you need to look at LA for what it is: its own city.
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I think what you're calling the "core" of Los Angeles is a larger area than even Manhattan,
LA is really freakin' big, man. It's tough to understand the scope until you actually spend a few days going around town without an itinerary, exploring.
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but I don't think it's very walkable and pedestrian-friendly. Could you in theory walk around? Sure.
In theory and in practice, as most Angelenos do walk around.
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But I doubt most people feel that way and the lack of pedestrian activity in this shot (considering it's the densest area in LA) is telling.
I don't agree, sorry. This analysis is baseless and has no grounding in reality.
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That's like going to 14th and P and seeing almost no pedestrians.
Well, if you go down to 7th and Broadway downtown, the streets are packed with pedestrians well into the night. Same as on Sunset Strip, down Vermont from 1st till past Olympic and down all the major avenues all up and down that strip (3rd, Wilshire, 6th, Olympic, Pico, etc)... I could go on.
You really do just need to come out here and experience it.
Let me know when you do, I'll be happy to take you out in my car. We'll put the top down and I'll take you from the coast to downtown without an end to dense tracts of people.
Oh yes! Three parking spots length of asphalt in the tiny LA neighborhood strip mall is way too dangerous to walk across!!
For New Yorkers its like a vampire crossing a river!
Seems that way
It's really the same deal as it is in NYC, Boston, etc etc etc: you either walk up to the store front or you park your car on your way back home, except there's a designated place to park, rather than having to drive around the block three times and ultimately double-park with your hazards on!
You don't live here and you've already assigned LA a "suburban sprawl" title in your mind
I didn't assign it the "dense sprawl" title. I got that from Eric Eidlin.
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
so on the first account, you can't see it because you aren't here and aren't travelling out here any time soon (AFAIK naturally), and on the second accord, you're only looking for data and anecdotes to back up your argument while ignoring the real-life input of people who live here.
*scratches head*
It's rare to be criticized for citing the work of reputable urban planners. At any rate, I have considered the input of people who live there, including munchitup who said that you have to "actively seek out a car-free lifestyle in LA unlike Boston, Chicago or Philadelphia." He then changed his position a couple of months later in the "City vs. City" forum when he started boosting LA. The funny thing is, most people in the LA forum actually echoed his sentiment.
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
LA is really freakin' big, man. It's tough to understand the scope until you actually spend a few days going around town without an itinerary, exploring.
I know it's big. I've been there. But like Eidlin says, it's a lot of "low urban density." It doesn't pack the intensity of the Financial District/Tremont in Boston. Most of it is designed and feels quite similar to Arlington, Virginia (wide roads, strip malls, single family homes, etc.).
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Originally Posted by 415_s2k
Let me know when you do, I'll be happy to take you out in my car. We'll put the top down and I'll take you from the coast to downtown without an end to dense tracts of people.
I've already done this. We drove from the Staples Center all the way to Santa Monica on surface streets.
Oh yes! Three parking spots length of asphalt in the tiny LA neighborhood strip mall is way too dangerous to walk across!!
For New Yorkers its like a vampire crossing a river!
That wouldn't be so bad if it were one parking lot. But the city of Los Angeles required all businesses to have parking. And as Shoup said, this has resulted in "disruptions in the urban fabric." Obviously, city planners consider it a problem, otherwise they would just leave the old parking requirements in place.
Not really. I've seen a few people doing it in Arlington and Fairfax County, Virginia, which has roads (and strip malls) similar to what you see in LA.
Well, that's your experience. I can't say that I'd really ever be inclined to walk anywhere in LA. It's too spread out, the traffic is too fast, and the roads are too wide.
I don't doubt this. But we're talking about urban design. And from an urban design standpoint, they are wasteful of land, and prevent continuity in the city's urban fabric.
Disinclined, fine. Try it and get more inclined.
I also don't question your case that many things are detrimental to urban design. The question is how detrimental and in relation to a lot of other factors weighing in at once. A few blocks of small lot detached single family housing in an area otherwise full of retail and apartment buildings doesn't take down the whole neighborhood--I'd say those people who live in those single family housing units are goddamn lucky to have all that personal space in the middle of a walkable environment.
I'll give you a case study from personal knowledge. I have friends who live in the dense neighborhood of Palms where there's some small stretches of single family detached housing on small lots--but the vast majority of people live in two to four (I think I saw up to six, but I'm not sure) story apartment complexes which allow for much higher density than most Philadelphia rowhouse neighborhoods. In walking distance (I'll limit that to fifteen minute walks to be lazy), both theory and practice, are three very large supermarkets (one of them a Trader Joe's, which I like), several specialty grocery stores catering to Mexican, Southeast Asian, and Indian clientale, and dozens upon dozens of great restaurants, a hookah bar/restaurant, various professional services, a French lycee, a traditional Jewish deli, a butcher, an exorbitantly expensive top of the line Japanese omakase-style restaurant (in the same strip mall as a CVS, flower shop, some other shops I can't remember and a really terrible gringo taco place--bizarre, yea, but business seems to be good), express bus service (great, because my friends go to UCLA and it's about twenty minutes for the commute--meanwhile, me in NYC have to commute for forty minutes on average to get from door to door), a park, a public school that holds events in its courtyard, and the Expo light rail line which is debuting this month. They live carless virtually the entire time (they have one parked for most of its life which are used for outings to the beach or to go do some sightseeing). Yes, there are a lot of people who drive through and in the area, but it's still filled with a lot of people who walk. You can argue many traditionally non-urban cities have neighborhoods like this, but to the same amount of neighborhoods? To the same quality and diversity? Pretty unlikely. Also, I understand it's a pretty foreign idea right now that neighborhoods like this can be and are walkable. I think much of it has to do with the cultural change that's been happening for a while. Along with that are a lot of the immigrants/children of immigrants from East Asia and Latin America who went to visit or try living in those major metropolises and the college-educated who went to school in major urban campuses came back with the idea that walking and mass transit was actually a fine way of living--whereas a generation ago, it was about driving everywhere.
I do wish they had more crosswalks (seriously, there needs to be one on Jasmine across Palm), but even with that it still offers a surfeit of urban amenities.
I also don't question your case that many things are detrimental to urban design. The question is how detrimental and in relation to a lot of other factors weighing in at once. A few blocks of small lot detached single family housing in an area otherwise full of retail and apartment buildings doesn't take down the whole neighborhood--I'd say those people who live in those single family housing units are goddamn lucky to have all that personal space in the middle of a walkable environment.
Your focus is on density rather than distance. Most cities, including Los Angeles, sacrifice so much space to the automobile. Blocks of houses with driveways make a huge difference in the aggregate. And businesses with parking lots, whether behind the structure or curbside, make a huge difference in the aggregate. If these things didn't make a difference, then LA would be considered right up there with Chicago, SF and Boston as one of the great walkable cities of the U.S. instead of a paradoxical case of a densely populated city dominated by the automobile.
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